Britain marches on toward total cultural armageddon.
Okay, maybe that’s hyperbole but still. The nation you used to be able to count on for good solid common sense continues its downward spiral towards the day the crown is replaced by a turban:
A police community support officer ordered two Christian preachers to stop handing out gospel leaflets in a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham.
The evangelists say they were threatened with arrest for committing a “hate crime” and were told they risked being beaten up if they returned. The incident will fuel fears that “no-go areas” for Christians are emerging in British towns and cities, as the Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester, claimed in The Sunday Telegraph this year.
Arthur Cunningham, 48, and Joseph Abraham, 65, both full-time evangelical ministers, have launched legal action against West Midlands Police, claiming the officer infringed their right to profess their religion.
The preachers, both ministers in Birmingham, were handing out leaflets on Alum Rock Road in February when they started talking to four Asian youths.
A police community support officer (PCSO) interrupted the conversation and began questioning the ministers about their beliefs.
They said when the officer realised they were American, although both have lived in Britain for many years, he launched a tirade against President Bush and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Mr Cunningham said: “I told him that this had nothing to do with the gospel we were preaching but he became very aggressive.
“He said we were in a Muslim area and were not allowed to spread our Christian message. He said we were committing a hate crime by telling the youths to leave Islam and said that he was going to take us to the police station.”
On one level, these stories freak me out. Britain’s the foreign country most like us culturally yet just look at the shit going on there. It could happen here, too! But then I think, no. Bullcorn. Not while my generation breathes, anyway. See, our cops haven’t been neutered mentally and equipmentally. They still get to have guns and testicles, which I believe affects their overall psyche for the better, making them less prone to idiotic crap like telling ministers that preaching is a hate crime against those poor innocent Muslims.
OK … what did we Canadians do to piss you off?
[Heh. Actually I just don't even consider Canada a "foreign" country for some reason even though I know it is technically. It's more like North Minnesota to me.
Rachel]
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:26 amYea, I saw this story over the weekend. The scariest part of this is that this is the direction the “left” wants to take our country.
Well, not specifically this story, but they want European style socialism.
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:31 amRach,
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:35 amIt freaks me out too, so I am not disagreeing with your main point, BUT the Brits really are not like us at all. I thought so too before I lived there for 5 years. My wife used to say “since we sort of speak the same language it seems like we should be alike so it is even more disturbing how different they are.” All the individualistic, adventurous people left (or are still leaving) to create places like America and to a lesser extent, Australia. All the Democrat/Socialist “please government, take care of me, i’m a subject not a citizen” types stayed. They are nothing like us. Or i guess I should say not like you, me and the majority of your readers, but unfortunately very much like the large # who would ever consider voting for ‘bama/hilary.
Well, if we are not at the same level of self-destruction yet, we’re pretty speedily getting there.
That’s what I learned from my own experience, described here.
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:46 amI wasn’t preaching anything: I was just TAKING PICTURES on a public sidewalk.
Well I know what the Apostle Paul would do. He’d go back to where he was staying that day and maybe have a spot of lunch, say his prayers and walk right back and start spreading the Gospel. Later that night while in jail he would minister to whoever would listen.
God I’m glad they didn’t have teh interweb back then lest he be tempted to log onto The Martyr’s Forum and whine about those evil Galipians persecuting him.
June 2nd, 2008 at 8:49 amThe Brits are much further down the primrose path to sharia than we at this point — e.g. they have a growing problem with honor killings (and isn’t it interesting to note that this victim was buried in Birmingham !).
But with the advent of foot basins in public schools?
We’re on our way.
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:22 amI wonder how much you are right with the police being unarmed causing some of the problems–They are supposed to make things peaceful, but don’t have much power, so when a conflict between two groups arises, they admonish the one least likely to give them trouble.
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:27 amBritain’s the foreign country most like us culturally…
Historically, yes. But I would argue Australia fits that description today: a young, English-speaking former colony with a strong streak of common sense. They require immigrants assimilate to their culture, not the other way around. And they haven’t (yet) become paralyzed by PC thinking.
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:30 amThe problem is the Muslim people don’t want a level playing field, they want everything their Sharia Koran way. Anything else is hateful to them and will incite their violence. The brits, europe and the libitards in the US are appeasing them. It’s truly disgusting.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:03 amYou would think that a Police Officer would have a better grip on what is legal and what is not than the general public, but you would be wrong.
Police are here to maintain order and if that means violating your rights to do so then you will find yourself quickly kicked to the curb and placed in a choke hold.
The Police aren’t a court of law and aren’t sworn to uphold rights. They are a bureaucracy, an armed bureaucracy who behave like most bureaucracys do, they don’t like to be bothered.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:04 amTolbert has a point — even in Texas!
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:45 am+1, Tolbert.
With apologies to any LEO professionals present, it’s been my real-world experience that most beat cops have a tenuous grip on the law, at best, and the overwhelming majority of what law they do have concern search&siezure, arrest, detention and whatever revenue-enhancing law they’re enforcing at the moment.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:55 amI was accused of being anti-Christian a month ago, for asking a visitor on my draft horse web page not to call horse psychics ’satanic’. Heck, I thought there was a middle ground - a “this isn’t a religious bastion of Christians, because we aren’t talking about religion here. Do that with your own congregation.” Something about the constitution and tolerance and all that.
Apparently Christians also adhere to the ‘if you aren’t with us, you are against us’. And I believe there are Christian zones in the US defended just as ruthlessly as any gang turf. OK, maybe with a couple fewer handguns. But move into the wrong ‘believer’ neighborhood, and your freedom-of-religion perspective can ruin your life.
You picked up on the scary way Muslims aggressively seize territory and customs, and enforce their own notions of right and acceptable. Mixed in with all the faithful are a bunch of armed thugs that look just like organized crime families and drug cartels and rebel mercenary armies.
The big difference is that Christians as an institution tend to obey the law. Individuals may protest and rebel, but he organization doesn’t. It isn’t an individual resistance among Muslims.
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:30 amIn the US basically ‘If you can see it, you can shoot it’. There are few exceptions: sensitive government buildings and using a zoom lens to shoot someone who has a reasonable expectation of privacy are the biggies. If you are in a public place and can see your subject fron that place (w/o a zoom) you can take the picture. The only way you can be legally forced to delete pictures is by court order.
This is a quick summation and remember I am not a lawyer, however I am a photographer. This is not binding legal advice.
An excellent guide to photographers rights is located here.
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:53 amAlready is happening here, Rachel.
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?storyid=3467
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:04 pmDoh! I’m an idiot
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:08 pmThank you, ccs*, that’s what many commenters told me, at the time - and that’s what I thought, too.
The story is 1.5 yrs old now, it ended there (as far as I know - I wasn’t summonned to any court).
But I know better now than to rely on police’ help.
June 2nd, 2008 at 12:37 pmI was going to say that Rachel was overreacting, that we have no indication that this type of thing is widely practiced in the UK or condoned by the UK police.
Then I saw the “punishment” meted out to the officer in question:
Yes, you read that right. Sensitivity training. For threatening to arrest someone for expressing their religion.
Until a police officer threatens someone for standing on a street corner, I don’t think we have anything to worry about.
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:02 pmTatyana-Have you seen the Photographer’s Bill of Rights?. This version is on a lawyers site, so I’m guessing that it’s pretty accurate: http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
As one of those crazy Mormons, I was a missionary in Belgium in the early 90’s. We found ourselves in a Muslim neighborhood, and were told we had to leave by a rather scary man who was apparently a religious leader in the area. As a missionary, I was never interested in engaging in religious arguments, so we didn’t make a huge issue out of it, and left, after telling the man that we did, indeed, have a right to be there. This kind of stuff has been going on for quite awhile in Europe, and they still haven’t learned.
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:19 pmThank you, Lucy and CCS, I haven’t seen it.
June 2nd, 2008 at 3:39 pmA very useful link.
As long as people have guns…we’ll be protecting ourselves better than Cops.
As a sidenote,in America…the cops dont have to do “anything.” Their only job is to enforce the law…that is all.Most people forget this or dont know.So they dont need to protect you,but only enforce a law.
So you better be cleaning your gun collection if you expect to be protected.
June 2nd, 2008 at 4:42 pmWhat happened to the Britain that gave us Led Zeppelin and The Who? They were loud, they were drunk, and they didn’t take anyone’s shit. That’s the UK I want.
(p.s., Don’t some people at least still play rugby over there?)
(sorry, just one more thing, this is Robin Williams on British cops: “STOP! or I’ll say ’stop’ again!”)
June 3rd, 2008 at 12:00 amAs a cop, reading stories like this, even ones from other countries, makes me cringe. What an asshole! Granted I wasnt there and I didnt see what that guy saw, but I have a fair guess that he was waaaaay over reacting. It also sounds to me like this guy was a pseudo-cop who was trying to flex his muscles and looking like an anemic 90 year old (FYI: if you have no real authority and you start threatening people it just makes you look weak). This guy was a Police Community Support Officer…not exactly SWAT. In fact he was probably no better than a meter maid.
Then again I can totally see the two evangelist getting in the pseudo-cop’s face, causing his impotent rage to fester.
Like I tell people on calls when theres a dispute of facts…you have your story and they have theres…somewhere in the middle is the truth.
Side Note: Alot of people seem to misunderstand a large part of what an officer’s job is, and enforcing the law is only half of it. Its also about keeping the peace (also called order maintenance).
On some random disturbance call, the person giving me the most resistance and making the biggest ass of themself when I show up is going to be at the butt end of some unpleasant attention regardless of what other legal matters may be at hand. Thats one of the only reasons I would have any support for the officer in this story if they wernt a rent-a-cop/meter maid. Ive been there and had someone who was doing something annoying/disruptive and the community wanted them removed, only to find that the person in question was within their rights and breaking no law. Then they start waving around the fact that they ‘beat the man’ and telling you what you better do. Its tough to sit there and take it without blowing up back at them. Again though, if you have no authority in a situation, making idle threats only serves to make you appear weaker.
Still…there seems to be some misconceptions about what the police are there for. we’re not there to enforce your rights over someone else’s. I hate when people try that crap on me. We enforce laws and maintain order…not your right to be an ass to everyone you meet. Your on your own on that one. Im also not here as your personal bodygaurd and protector either…cause when seconds count well be there in 5 to 10 minuets. Were also not Grand Arbiter’s of Justice who swoop down and decide on the spot who is right and wrong in a dispute. If you really want that trailer back from your neighbor who your convinced stole it and spray painted it black, then sue him civilly. Im not going to take stuff from one person and give it to another unless a)you have a court order I can verify or b)you have 100% irrefutable evidence that the stuff is yours. I know its unfair, but would you want me to act differently if he was demanding your leafblower?
Sorry…didnt mean to get off topic…
June 3rd, 2008 at 4:02 amConjecture. These people quite possibly were peaceful, kind, and gentle. The God became man that they worship was, and they could have in fact been emulating him.
Again conjecture. It is quite possible one of the two parties is completely lying their butt off. To assume that somewhere in the middle lies the truth is to completely miss the truth with a silly short-cut approach to discernment. The intellignet path would be to actually seek what did happen and not assume it lies somewhere in the middle.
For example. Two people with two different stories about what happened. The party in the wrong has no qualms about lying. The party in the right does not lie and will only tell the truth. The party in the wrong has ever reason to lie and thus gain favor through the ‘truth lies somewhere in the middle’ line of thinking.
This is why our legal system fails.
June 3rd, 2008 at 8:39 amOK, so “Police Community Support Officer” caught my eye. From Wikipedia, it appears that these folks “are not members of Police Federation, the police constables trade union, but the civilian police trade union, UNISON.”
As to their powers, “The Chief Constable of each service throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland (or Commissioner in London) can decide which of the powers available in law their PCSOs are to be designated with. Each service will have policies about how PCSOs should act and what powers they should use how, where and when. PCSOs do not have a duty to act, unlike police constables; it is up to their discretion whether they should exercise a power in each situation. Each PCSO is assigned their powers and must carry a card which lists precisely all the powers they have. Unlike a police constable, a PCSO only has powers when on duty and in uniform, and within the region policed by their respective force.”
So, I’m thinking the guy is not a full-fledged cop.
Here’s the wiki.
June 3rd, 2008 at 9:20 am