“There are no atheists in a foxhole.”*
Thanks to commenter Fozzy for reminding me of that quote - it really is true - and to all of you who are already sending out prayers and good thoughts for Joe. I really, really appreciate it and I know his family will, too.
Rupert called me at almost 1 a.m. with an update featuring good news and bad news. The good news is, Joe doesn’t have any pelvic fractures or broken femurs. They’d suspected the pelvic fracture at first but then were able to rule it out; I’m not sure why the initial x-ray wasn’t conclusive or how this particular injury is determined but in any case, it’s a relief. He’s basically fine from his neck to below his knees.
The bad news is, what’s going on below the knee on one leg. Rupert couldn’t get a look at it because it’s bandaged, but was told that it’s messed up pretty bad, as in the meat is gone. We don’t know what’s going to happen to that foot.
As for his noggin, it sounds nasty but the medical facts are promising. Basically, his scalp was ripped open from ear to ear on the back of his head; Rupert says the stitches start right above one ear and go all the way around almost to the other. (Updated to say that sometimes rumors get out of hand - the stitches actually only are about 3 inches long.) He got there so late that he wasn’t able to talk to anyone but one nurse so he still doesn’t know if the skull is fractured. I am thinking it’s not. He apparently lost a whole lot of blood from his scalp and leg, and his blood pressure was extremely low for several hours but is now back up.
And he has full pupil response, which is good. Also, the nurse said when he first got to the ER, he was thrashing around crazily, arms and legs, so that means he likely has no major spinal injuries. The thrashing is one of the reasons they put him in the coma.
Rupert and his mom slept in the waiting room last night (the hospital is over an hour away from the house) and were supposed to see the doctors this morning; I’m waiting for a phone call about that. He said his mom is holding up very well; this isn’t her first rodeo as far as Joe and hospitals, because he’s had other accidents and those heart stents. And they have a huge extended family up there so there’s plenty of moral support.
I don’t know why, but it is a little awkward and even maybe embarrassing for me to sit here and write about praying. Rupert’s even more of an agnostic than I am, and far more private, and I worry that he’ll think I’m weird for writing about all of this on the internet (although he said I could - I always ask first). And I have a few atheist friends and relatives who I figure right about now think I’m being a total cheeseball.
But you know, I don’t even care anymore. It’s probably obvious that over the last several months, I’ve been thinking about this sort of thing an awful lot. The point of life, the point of believing in something other than what you can see with your eyes, and all of that. I no longer see religions like Christianity as wrong, but as tools through which to filter your deepest feelings about your own existence. I figure, whatever works for any individual human is perfect for that human. None of the religions works for me but the more thought I give it, the more I confirm for myself that I truly do believe/know there is a God, and that every human is part of the “mind” of that God. Which is why I pray and why when others pray for me, I feel it in my guts. I just do. And I don’t give a crap how cheesy it sounds.
So thanks to you all who are with me on this, having Joe on your minds and wishing him well. I think he’s going to be just fine even though his recovery won’t exactly be a party. They said they’ll probably keep him in the coma 72-96 hours, so maybe he’ll be awake by Wednesday, before Rupert has to come back home for his own medical shenanigans. I’ll update as I learn more. Thanks again, everyone.
UPDATE: If you have any urge whatsoever to leave a contrary comment about the title of this post, don’t bother because I will delete it like the two I just did for that very reason. I “fixed” another one. It really is amazing how fantastically insensitive and rude people can be just to make a point about something they believe. This is not the time or the place for anyone to start debating the existence of God. I can’t even BELIEVE I HAVE TO SAY THAT. Another piece of advice, learn to use archives before you decide you know anything about a blogger based on one post, let alone one blog post title. Good grief, it’s so! simple!… and yet so difficult for some people to master.
*That quote is not a statement of fact. It’s a quote that expressed the way I felt while upset about someone I care about, and if all the atheists who are so indignant right now knew how to use archives, they’d know why I would say it, which is that I’ve been back and forth between atheism and agnosticism for the last 20 years. I’ve had raging and borderline hostile debates with Christians about this issue right here on this blog. The quote was used to illustrate how I was feeling in a time of personal crisis. I will never ever say it again as long as I live because now I know how much time and effort atheists will put into disabusing one of the notion, and I’m sure they have better things to do.
So the news so far is hopeful. Good. Good, good, good.
Prayers continue, and keep your chin up. We’re all here for you.
June 8th, 2008 at 10:59 amRachel,
One question, does Joe wear a helmet?
My oldest son has a Harley, and as a mom,
I. HATE. IT.
Thoughts and prayers for Joe and all who love him.
Edit:
One tip. Keep a notebook in the room with Joe.
Note doctors names, nurses, prognosis, etc. AND ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE.
When the doctors come in, you won’t remember the questions you had, and the notebook will keep everyone in the loop. Rupert might be there when mom is not or vice versa. They can get answers to everybodys questions if they are in a central location.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:11 amWe did this when my father was in the hospital and it worked very well. When relatives would call for an update, all the info was there.
Here’s a quote from the Dalai Lama that sums up where I personally am, religion-wise.
We’re still praying for you, as long as you need it. Please remember to take care of yourself and Rupert, because being the support system when someone you love sustains a life-threatening injury is exhausting, both physically and emotionally.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:13 amSince you made your request for prayers conditional (”If you’re the praying type”), I don’t see that you’ve done anything out of agnostic character. You have simply asked that those who believe differently add their good wishes and open their hearts to a deeply emotional situation.
It could be seen as a smaller version of Pascal’s Wager where you are thinking that the prayers of those who do believe might be of help. and if they aren’t then you haven’t lost anything anyway.
Best wishes to Rupert’s family for both a full recovery and the least trouble in the process.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:36 amMy thoughts and prayers are with Joe and the family.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:41 amI once wrote elsewhere, “please, let there be Mystery!” Mystery is where our life begins. Without it, we are our own gods. To be one’s own god, a more miserable fate I cannot imagine, albeit, a more sensible and palatable one to a pseudo-intellectual few. Maybe. But not a more desirable existence; not to me.
It’s the little secret that they don’t write books about, the happy, knowable, Mystery.
May there be a Mysterious and miraculous recovery in Joe’s future.
June 8th, 2008 at 12:03 pmHi Rachel. Hi Rupert.
Amen.
June 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pmI am sorry to hear that you find the contribution of so many members of our military, such as Master Sergeant Gid L. White (retired), to be of no value.
“‘There are no atheists in a foxhole’ isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes.” - James Morrow
[Wait, this is what I really meant to say:
I am a complete and total asshole. I took something said as a simple sentiment by someone in an emotional state and construed it to be some sort of attack on people who don't believe in God. Clearly, I haven't been reading this blog for long or I'd know what a stupid thing that was to do on so many different levels. I've given a bunch of people yet one more reason to believe the stereotype that atheists are insensitive shitheads. I'm so proud of myself right now. ]
June 8th, 2008 at 12:23 pmGlad to see somone’s already linked to the Foxhole Atheists page.
June 8th, 2008 at 12:41 pmTwo things.
1) Foxhole Athiest sounds like an asshole who is completely missing Rachel’s point.
2) Rachel, you and your family are in the prayers of me and mine.
June 8th, 2008 at 12:45 pmPraying for Joe and all the family (you included).
June 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pmRachel, Dear, what JT said, and Janna has a great idea! Let us know what else we can do. Hugs to you. Sunny and Maggie, too! [They still need you no matter what you might be going through, right now. Walks are a good, very good thing!]
June 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pmThoughts and prayers to Joe and all of his support group.
June 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pmRachel,
Thanks for the news! Seems to me only reasonable to ask for support from those who would be pissed if you didn’t ask!
Dear ‘Foxhole Atheists,’
When I was growing up, my father’s admonition to us kids was always: “Make yourself useful!”
The way I see it, spiritually, right now, Rachel is in the trenches and needs as many prayer warriors as she can muster.
If that’s not your specialty, just do what you can, whatever you do best, to be as useful as you can.
Personally, I love cheeseballs.
June 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pmRachel,
You and your family are in our prayers. It sounds as if things may work out for Joe much better than first expected.
I had a cousin who was riding his MC when a car backed out of a driveway, hitting him. The injuries were life-threatening, including major brain trauma. But after a tough recovery, he made it back to his old self. And that injury happened in the 70’s.
As far as faith and religion go, my favorite theologian is CS Lewis. The Chronicles of Narnia, while described as a child’s fantasy, are actually very powerful allegories of God, Jesus, and the Christian faith - which DOES NOT require membership in an organized church. If you haven’t read them you may want to give them a look in the order in which they were intended to be read, not in chronological order. Or start by watching the movies, Lion, Witch & the Wardrobe & Prince Caspian - they are very faithful to the books. The Last Battle, the final book in the series, was particularly powerful for me.
Also, you might really enjoy The Screwtape Letters, where a demon is sending his nephew advice on how to suborn man from God. Great stuff, and hysterically funny at times. It reminded me of some of Mark Twain’s writings.
June 8th, 2008 at 1:07 pmDude, your comment is such a cheap shot.
I have found that there is a time for every type of discourse at this site. As the old saying goes “there is a time and a place for everything.”
Couldn’t you be respectful enough to bring up your point at a more appropriate time and location? I am sure we would all love to argue semantics and religion at any old time once the webmistress opens the dialogue, seeing as it is her prerogative to choose a theme at her discretion.
I really believe that the title of this post was used as a personal ephphany in the literal sense of the phrase, not an invitation to berate the author because you believe the quote was taken out of context and/or the interpretation does not mesh with your personal philosophy.
June 8th, 2008 at 1:14 pmIt didn’t sound cheesy. You are speaking from your heart and asking others too keep someone you love in their thoughts and prayers (you can never have too many people doing that).
Were keeping you all in our thoughts and prayers.
June 8th, 2008 at 1:15 pmRachel, I’m sorry to hear about Joe, and I will pray for him. I’ve been convinced over time that prayer does work, even though I am an agnostic like you.
June 8th, 2008 at 1:16 pmJennas suggestion about keeping a notepad handy is a good one. I recently spent some time in the ICU with my mother-in-law, and when everybody is under stress, it’s easy to forget the questions for the internist or neurologist or whomever when they come around.
Take the dogs for extra walkies, be positive!
My husband and I have you and Rupert and Joe and your family in our prayers.
I can recommend this: Identify simple calming things in your life and do more of them. It does wonders for your sanity.
Walk the dogs (but you know this already).
June 8th, 2008 at 1:32 pmI’m relieved, and will pray for your family
June 8th, 2008 at 1:33 pmFor what it’s worth, you’re all in my prayers.
June 8th, 2008 at 2:07 pmFoxhole Atheist, please take this somewhere else. This isn’t the time for you to take shots and anyones beliefs or shots about what Rachel wrote.
My mom used to say “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything.” Something you should consider.
Rachel, if Joe is as tough as my dad (which it sounds like he is) he’ll come back from this stronger than ever. Again, I’ll keep all of you in my prayers
June 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pmFoxhole Atheist:
I can completely agree with your objections to the platitude “There are no atheists in foxholes.” It has the insidious effects of making rational people ‘wrong by definition’ and discourages thoughtful examination.
But here’s the thing. And it’s a big thing.
My friend Rachel finds herself in something of a foxhole right now, and if the notion of no atheists in foxholes brings her comfort, then so be it. Her emotional well-being at this point is far more important than rigid logical consistency.
Had you bothered to review Rachel’s spiritual journey which she has so generously and honestly shared with everyone, you could have crafted a comment that was both compassionate and thought provoking. As it stands you’ve likely hardened the philosophical opposition to our viewpoint.
***************
Despite the ominous clouds in Rachel’s life, I can’t help but grin when she publicly refers to Rupert Josephson and his parents as ‘Family.’
June 8th, 2008 at 2:20 pmCarbo, that’s really sweet!
I’d be rooting for Joe in any case, but his being a ‘Joe’ really touches me. My pater is a ‘Joe’ too, and so was my brother.
June 8th, 2008 at 2:30 pmRachel: Rest assured that you,Rupert and his Dad are in our prayers! And kudos for keeping your thoughts “fluid” on Christianity!
June 8th, 2008 at 2:43 pmGlad to hear he’s better, although he obviously has a way to go. Our thoughts and prayers continue. Best wishes for all of you!
June 8th, 2008 at 3:02 pmWhat Carbo said. Honestly, people can be so selfish and clueless. This isn’t a time to promote a belief system or agenda - it’s a time for Rachel’s commenter family to give her all the love the internet and prayers/thoughts allow - which is a lot! Take it somewhere else, Foxhole Atheist. This is family business. If you want to become part of this family at this particular time, you gotta get some humility going first. Not in what you believe, but how you approach this big dinningroom table we all sit around.
Besides which, anyone who comes here for even two minutes and hasn’t figured out that Rachel isn’t capable of holding the service of the military to be ‘of no value’REALLY isn’t paying attention! So you missed the boat all the way around, mate.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:05 pmI have trouble with the whole Christian thing myself some days.
I absolutely believe that there’s a God, which I suppose makes me a deist at least, but I’m not too sure about the literal interpretation of the bible, or any other ‘holy’ book. I believe in evolution, for example, which is going to get me into no end of arguments with my fiance’s family.
You know what? It doesn’t, or shouldn’t, matter. The reason that I have your site bookmarked and come here every day isn’t just because you’re funny or because you post hilarious dog pics. It’s because you’re obviously a good, totally genuine person (the bee costume aside; I’m sure that God and Sunny will forgive you, eventually), and a breath of fresh air.
To be honest I’d be afraid to share my feelings online the way that you’ve done. Rupert’s damn lucky to have someone like you.
I’ll pray again for Joe tonight, and ask my fiance to pass on the word.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:09 pmOK, Rachel. Here’s how it goes:
Dear God in Heaven we come before you to pray through your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Lord we lift up Joe, Rupert, Rachel and their families in this time of injury, pain, separation and suffering. Give them strength, patience and comfort. Turn your face to them. Hold them in Your Grace.
Lord we ask you to bless and work through the hospital, staff, nurses and doctors. Steady their hands and hearts as they do their work. Bless and be with each and every one of them. Guide them to be skilled servants of mercy and healing.
Lord we plead for you to hold Joe in your power and protection. Heal his injuries. Let his body fight off injury and infection. Give him strength for the healing struggle ahead. Calm his heart from fear. Be near to him through this time.
We are reminded, Lord, that this is beyond our power or understanding. No matter the outcome, we submit to your will. Give us the grace and conciousness to be in the moment and be in your will. We submit to this world and it’s trials until your perfect world comes. Allow us to be in your Grace as this trial comes and passes.
In Jesus holy name we pray.
Amen.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:13 pmHi Rachel, glad to hear that Joe’s head injury may not affect the brain. That’s excellent news.
And at the risk of sounding preachy, I’d recommend giving C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity a read. It’s what helped push me into belief after years of agnosticism and knowing there was something, but being not quite sure what.
Take care.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:25 pmSome Guy:
Read this.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:36 pmThanks for the update. Seems he is holding his own. And Rachel, while I believe fully and wholeheartedly in a Christian God and Jesus as his son, I also understand your questioning and uncertainty. So you ask for prayers and don’t worry about the other stuff, this is where those of us who do believe add the “Gods time, not ours” statement, and have utter faith that He will take care of it when He is ready. Peace to you, Rupert, and the rest of his family.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:43 pmThanks, Carbo, I just found that post and was getting ready to do the same thing!
June 8th, 2008 at 3:44 pmRachel, here’s passing on good thoughts/prayers for you and yours.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:46 pmImpressive. In this context, it would appear to demonstrate the truth of the distinction between atheists and agnostics being primarily personality related.
I hope Joe will be all right.
June 8th, 2008 at 3:59 pmCarbo:
Whoops. I guess search is my friend. Oh well, a second reading of a fine book never hurts
In my defence, I’m new here and mostly I just look for Rachel’s Firefly posts. But her prayer request prompted me to post. Whoops again.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:12 pmElvenPhoenix,
What Carbo said.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:13 pmYou’re wonderful to care, but don’t make any assumptions about Rachel — that’s just not safe!
Welcome, Some Guy. It’s cool - you’ll do fine here. You’ve caught us on a day when we are feeling pretty protective of our girl! Roam around as many of her previous posts as you have time for and you’ll be up to speed - I can’t think of a better way to spend a lazy Sunday afternoon.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:26 pmJust directed here from another site. I’m glad to here things appear to be going well for Joe. Blessings, grace and peace, Br’er Shaygetz
June 8th, 2008 at 4:35 pmIt seems my call got through after all. Well, mine and everyone else’s, anyway.
While I’ve read both Narnia and C.S. Lewis’s Space Trilogy, both of which contain Christian themes, I’ve yet to read any of his nonfiction work. I couldn’t say for sure if it would convert me, as it converted Francis Collins (author of The Language of God, which I just read recently), but it might help me grok a little more about what’s going on.
I’ve also looked hard at Unitarian Universalism, because something tells me that’s about at the level I’m at. I have a book on order from Amazon about it; once it gets here, I can see if I’m right or not.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:37 pmI’ve been after Rachel for months to create a ‘Best of Rachel’ category, but she still hasn’t done it. I can’t tell you how infuriating it is when she doesn’t do what I tell her to do
So I’m just going to do it for her, on this lazy Sunday afternoon, as Marla says.
Here’s the first one:
When Bad Things Happen To Stupid People (Me)
June 8th, 2008 at 4:38 pmThese are in chronological order.
My Kitchen Smells Like Pickles
June 8th, 2008 at 4:40 pmWorse Than Giving Up Cigarettes
June 8th, 2008 at 4:42 pmGet. Out. Of. The. F*cking. Way.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:43 pmHelp me drive my boyfriend insane.
This post was merely “good,” but it showed the first glimpse of the awesomeness of Rachl’s Commentariat.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:45 pmEither or both of the posts about jury duty.
http://rachellucas.com/?s=%22jury+duty%22
June 8th, 2008 at 4:47 pmDammit, Ann Coulter
This is one of the better political posts, in that it approached an issue from a fresh perspective.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:49 pmA very good dog.
…immediately followed by the post ‘Gone’
Save this one for a time when you’ve got a couple of hours and a crying towel. This is a story on par with Rescuing Sprite and other similar testimonials.
June 8th, 2008 at 4:55 pmCarbo - Nice! I suggested a Best Of once, too, just before Rachel left for her trip to visit Rupert’s family. I’ve done it on my own (very) humble blog and it’s a great tool - gets people up to speed in half the time. And for the old-timers of Rachel’s site, it would serve as a handy ‘Memory Lane.’
June 8th, 2008 at 4:57 pmDIE, LAPTOP. DIE!
Is there anyone on the internet who hasn’t said these exact words?
June 8th, 2008 at 4:57 pmThanks for the links Carbo. I just got out of jury duty for a 6 week long trial (estimated), so I can relate to It’s never felt so good to get rejected. in particular.
June 8th, 2008 at 5:02 pmAnd the quintessential lesbian canine fornication photo essay,
How a well-mixed herder speaks truth to power.
June 8th, 2008 at 5:05 pmThose are just my suggestions for a Best Of as of February, 2008. Feel free to nominate your suggestions, as I have officially, irrevocably, and with no sense of guilt, hijacked this thread!
June 8th, 2008 at 5:10 pmWhile it is understandable to say this is not the time/place to address the foxhole atheist myth, that is the title of the blog entry.
So let me address it by a different approach. And please don’t take it the wrong way. I mean this in all sincerity.
If you are going to pray “just in case”, I suggest you pray to as many different gods as possible. If not, you may be praying to the wrong one. And don’t forget to gather a few additional lucky charms while you’re at it. I suggest a rabbit’s foot, 4 leaf clover, and a horseshoe for starters. Then you might want to do a Google search for lucky charms. There may be a number of them recognized by other cultures which are effective that we don’t know about.
Then you might want to tackle eliminating all the bad luck charms. You never know, that might make a difference as well.
If you are comforted by these measures which give the appearance of ‘doing something’, then why limit them to simply praying to one potential god when there are so many other acts of magical thinking which are comforting in situations where there is little else one can control.
The time to have affected this situation is past. That was Joe’s choice (from the sounds of the injuries) to not wear a helmet. Some people would find equal comfort in this situation doing something to prevent the next person from not wearing theirs. Perhaps the next blog entry might have a title reflecting that sentiment rather than a title suggesting magical thinking is important right now. It is a little more painful to consider Joe’s choices here, there is no doubt. But wouldn’t convincing a single person reading the blog to wear their helmet be better than a thousand posts of sympathy that make everyone feel better except Joe.
June 8th, 2008 at 5:30 pmAs a non-belliever who prays once in a while anyway, I figure it’s kinda like this:
Imagine God checking his messages on his prayer machine.
Bobby called, he wants to get a home run.
The Smith Family called, they want to thank you for the lovely dinner.
Janet called, she wants help finding a parking spot.
Bad Penny called, WHAT? BAD PENNY CALLED??? This must be really important! Bad Penny would like you to look in on Rupert’s mom and dad and lend a hand there if you can. Thanks. Okay, Penny, will do!
See, if you were God, would you listen to somebody who incescently nags you over every little thing, or somebody who you miss and who ignores you half the time?
It’s the passive-aggressive theory of a personal relationship with the Lord.
June 8th, 2008 at 5:31 pmIf Foxhole Atheist and the two other classless dickheads who clapped for him/her seriously think I’m going to put up with this kind of nitpicky shit right now, you are seriously deluded.
(1) Learn how to use archives on a blog before you start in with condescending lectures meant to enlighten your host.
(2) Learn the concept of picking your battles and having a nice big cup of Shut The Fuck Up Before You Say Something Stupid. It tastes a lot better than making a whole crowd of people think for the millionth time that atheists are rude assholes who don’t give a shit about being NICE, just being LOGICAL. Good job there, fulfilling people’s worst expectations.
(Everyone else, thank you again for being so kind.)
June 8th, 2008 at 6:02 pmI have such a soft spot for ornery men, Rachel. You bet he, his family, and you are my bestest thoughts and although I have no idea what he or any of his family look like, I’m picturing you all together laughing again. Soon.
June 8th, 2008 at 6:03 pm[Moved to a more appropriate location!]
June 8th, 2008 at 6:31 pmThe new acronym du jour:
STFUBYSSS
Rachel’s got it no matter what the circumstance. I am going to apply this liberally in my life –”well then, howzabout I bring you a nice steaming saddest bee mug of STFUBYSSS … Oh, you’ve never had any? Well, keep talkin’ and I’ll definitely share some with ya! It’s only got a slightly bitter aftertaste — nothing too unpalatable.”
[I am *hearing* it phonetically as s(t)foobiss.]
Great news that Joe is stable. We’re all with you.
June 8th, 2008 at 6:56 pmOH! And Becca wanted me to tell you she did five decades (a method for counting prayers on the Rosary) just for you.
pfffft! I see I’m not the only one psyched by the use of the word “stable” — that is heartening!
June 8th, 2008 at 7:10 pmRachel - you, Rupert, and Joe are in our prayers.
Foxhole Atheist - you exemplify the meaning of the word ’shitbird’.
June 8th, 2008 at 7:11 pmHope he gets better. I have been through a lot myself, and have no idea about anything other than how wonderful medical care is in this country. Is that God’s doing? Doesn’t matter. Does prayer help? Once again, I have no idea. But I am pretty sure it doesn’t hurt.
June 8th, 2008 at 7:14 pmDear Rachel,
I will include Rupert’s father in my prayers.
Bless you and your families,
all the best.
f
June 8th, 2008 at 7:20 pmWhen I wasn’t yelling at my kids to behave at Mass today I was able to pray for Rupert’s dad. I’ll dust off the Rosary and do it again tonight. And I’ll throw in a spare prayer for Rupert’s surgery.
June 8th, 2008 at 7:28 pmHey, someone else is using my ID!
Cool Rachel ..
Post a dig at Atheists, then delete their comments when they call you on it.
I certainly hope your friend gets better, but why do you think a god who didn’t keep him from harm in the first place, will take care of him now ?
AA
June 8th, 2008 at 7:38 pmRachel, I rarely post here, but I’ve become a regular reader. I will not only pray for Joe and his loved ones, but I’ll knock on wood as well, just to cover all the bases.
June 8th, 2008 at 7:55 pm> The new acronym du jour: STFUBYSSS
I believe it was Nietzsche who said, “When you look into the STFUBYSSS, everybody wins.”
June 8th, 2008 at 7:59 pmYour opening post is a lie. There ARE atheists in foxholes… even if you don’t “believe” there are. Pat Tilman was just such an atheist. Educate yourself and quit deleting posts who try to lessen the bigotry you spread. http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
Lying for Jesus is still lying. I hope your friend gets better. I hope he never is the bigot you are.
Just because your faith makes you feel all humble and honest… doesn’t make it true, you know.
June 8th, 2008 at 8:00 pmAnother rude comment deleted - I don’t understand the need to pick a fight and be an ass on a thread like this.
It really doesn’t score any points for their side.
June 8th, 2008 at 8:12 pmWouldn’t offend me in the least if you just closed comments on this thread…at least overnight.
June 8th, 2008 at 8:16 pmThe real pisser for us Christians is we are supposed to pray for people like these classless jokers, too. Yeah, I’ll get right on that…
I’m with Carbo - just shut this sucker down. Except, it is delicious to read when you bring the Ban Hammer down, so maybe not. What does the Wild Turkey say to do?
June 8th, 2008 at 8:33 pmWow. It’s really nice to see how classy some individuals are keeping it tonight, hassling some random blogger who’s boyfriend’s dad is in a coma, because she quoted a sentiment they don’t agree with. This is exactly what I wanted to be dealing with tonight, moderating comments on my blog because some fuckers might post something that’ll upset my future in-laws.
June 8th, 2008 at 8:44 pmIf you deleted all the rude comments, half of the posts would be gone ..
The rudeness started with the title of this blog entry ..
Why don’t you make it clear in your posting guidelines that only Rachel and her prayer buddies have the right to be rude …
June 8th, 2008 at 8:48 pmRachel,
June 8th, 2008 at 9:09 pmKeep the faith, and seriously consider closing this thread. We (hah) bus riders will offer our support wherever you post. You shouldn’t be dealing with this tonight, or until Joe is healthy.
Then, open this subject, lower the bitch hammer, and you all know we’ll pull out our intellectual best to support you.
Just don’t forget — we ARE on the short bus : )
Heather
A true believer here, praying for Joe and Rupert and you, Rachel. Blessings on you all. Those who seek find.
June 8th, 2008 at 9:12 pmI idn’t much of a believer, but I put up a pray from time to time as well. Who knows, and it can’t hurt. I’ll make this one of those times.
In my experience, Atheists are some of the most bigoted people I run across.
June 8th, 2008 at 9:23 pmLate to get the news, but oh my gosh, sorry to hear what happened! I will definitely keep Rupert’s dad, and everyone else involved, in my prayers. (I’ll also pray that the drive-bys get a clue.)
June 8th, 2008 at 9:31 pmThinking of Rupert, his father, his mother, and you during this.
June 8th, 2008 at 9:35 pmRachel,
I hope Joe recovers soon, and whatever pain you and your family are feeling now is replaced by those daily bits of good news. If the power of “positive” thought holds any weight with you, consider it offered from me for Joe and your family. It’s not a prayer, exactly, but it’s all I have.
June 8th, 2008 at 9:41 pmI only just read these last few posts and I’m so glad that there’s hope for Joe’s recovery. My father-in-law wasn’t so lucky in his motorcycle accident. My prayers are with you and Rupert both, Rachel.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:40 pmRachl Lukis, I’m praying for Joe and his family.
“Wait on the Lord. Be of good courage. He will strengthen your heart. Wait, I say, on the Lord!”
Psalm 27:14
P.S. Love the new banner so very much.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:59 pmI will include Joe and all the rest of Rupert’s family and you in my prayers. I know you are all worried sick about the difficult recovery he has ahead of him.
I love the quote about atheists in foxholes. It’s true!
June 9th, 2008 at 12:54 amWha? When did they become Rachel’s “future in-laws”?
June 9th, 2008 at 1:59 amYou, Rupert, Joe, and the rest of your “future-in-laws” are in my thoughts and prayers. God hears your prayers too no matter how you define Him. Much love to you. And don’t worry, your commenting faithful have your back.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:24 amI’m glad to hear that things are going well so far. Joe will be in my thoughts and I’ll be sure to wave around plenty of good thought chicken bones for him.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:36 amOh, for heaven’s sake. This why, as a person who has had no religious beliefs for two decades, I prefer not to identify myself as an atheist. Not because it isn’t technically accurate, but because the term has come to mean “obnoxious anti-religious asshole” to most people.
I will never understand why some non-religious people are so belligerent and defensive about their non-religiousness.
I am not the praying type, but Rachel’s present circumstances make we wish I were, because I feel for her and I wish there were something I could do to help. And it seems to me that any atheist who is not also a jackass would say something similar, instead of using Rachel’s blog title as an excuse to pick a fight at the absolute worst time imaginable.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:06 amFuture in-laws? Something you aren’t telling us?
My prayers for Rupert’s dad, mom & the upcoming surgeries. They sound like a great family Rachel, best wishes.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:11 amI’m late to this, but just wanted to add that I sent up a prayer for Joe, Rupert and you.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:15 amPrayers for your family, Rachel.
The only preaching I feel like doing today is to implore motorcycle riders everywhere to wear a helmet. (I used to, back in the day). You might be a very good rider, but there are a lot of bad drivers out there (this guy is past bad, though).
Get better, Joe, so you can be there in court the day they sentence this jerk.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:27 amDude, while I don’t pray, I would never knock anyone who does, only because I can’t know anymore than they can whether or not someone/thing is listening.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:19 amAnyway, sounds like Joe is doing ok or at least holding his own, and whether or not I pray, I can and do feel sorry for anyone who is going through so much pain, and that includes his family. Hoping for the best.
Well, full-disclosure style, I was linked from an Atheist site to here. But despite (or perhaps because of) my religious leanings (or lack thereof), I wish your boyfriend’s dad, and from the sounds of it, your friend, the best. There are people who understand what matters in life, and in tough times it’s better to have support than pointless debate.
I hope that he gets through it okay, and that you feel better. There’s people who have gone through similar situations, and who understand, and sympathize. You’re not alone.
I don’t really know why I’m posting here, maybe to assure you that really there are atheists with more maturity than 16-year old children, or maybe I hope that reading these words gives you some comfort (it probably doesn’t, I’m bad at comforting writing, but the sentiment is there), but I hope you’re feeling better.
I apologize on behalf of everyone who has posted here looking for a fight in a time of grief. And if they don’t want me apologizing on their behalf, too bad.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:20 amAlmighty Father, please be with Rachel, Rupert-not-his-real-name and their families as they deal with this situation. Please give them the courage to accept whatever happens to Joe, and please be with Joe as he recovers from this accident. Keep them in Your loving hands and protect them from all anxiety during their ordeal. We pray in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:31 amSorry to hear about Joe’s accident. All the best to you, Joe, Mrs. Joe and Rupert-not-his-real-name.
You are all in my prayers.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:30 amSo I guess Einstein, Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking have never been in foxholes.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:49 amMy thoughts and prayers are with you, Mr.Joe and strength and wisdom for Mrs. Joe and Rupert. Please keep us updated as much as you want.
June 9th, 2008 at 1:37 pmIt takes a person of little courage to delete comments that they don’t agree with or like. You must not be very secure in your beliefs.
June 9th, 2008 at 2:05 pmAdd me to the long list of people sending up prayers for Mr. & Mrs. Joe, Rupert, you and the rest of the Joe family.
June 9th, 2008 at 2:25 pmFUTURE ATHEIST COMMENT-ATTEMPTERS:
Give it up. If you are too lazy to use my archives to instruct yourselves on a few facts, such as that I’m not a Christian and I don’t believe in the Christian “God” and that that IS THE WHOLE POINT of why I said it was weird for me to talk about it and why I felt like an atheist in a foxhole, then I just don’t know what to tell you. People say cliches that feel right to them in the moment and maybe those cliches offend someone. It happens, but not always intentionally, as in this case. I was too busy thinking about someone in a coma to sit and consider how the foxhole quote might cause some atheists to get very upset.
Another thing you might learn if you look around is that it’s obvious to anyone who can read that I don’t delete comments just because I don’t “like” them. It is not your dissent that is getting you deleted on this thread. It’s the fact that this thread is about someone in a coma and his family will read it and it would be hurtful to them to see any kind of strife in THIS PARTICULAR CONTEXT.
You can go to about 10 other comment threads on this site and say all kinds of shit about religion, and as long as it’s not insulting, I won’t touch it. This thread is for my loved ones to read and maybe take a little comfort in. I own this site and own responsibility for everything on it. Commenting here, as on any site on the whole planet that YOU don’t own, is a privilege, not a right. There’s quite a consensus on that, which you might want to look into.
June 9th, 2008 at 2:34 pmI think an appeal to your god is a great idea. I’m planning to sacrifice a virgin to mine.
June 9th, 2008 at 2:57 pmI’m sorry it’s considered obnoxious to be offended by an offensive statement. If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all - and “There are no atheists in foxholes” isn’t nice.
June 9th, 2008 at 3:10 pmThe reason atheists feel compelled to respond to this is because you are insulting a great many of them, many of whom do serve in the armed forces and are presently “in foxholes”. You want sensitivity but display none toward atheists. Now, I know we are easy targets being almost universally reviled, but that does not mean we will not respond when we are insulted.
I am sorry there is a person you care for who is seriously injured and by all means if it makes you feel better to send prayers, then do, but don’t think you are helping in anyway. You are making yourself feel better. Studies of the efficacy of prayer have shown that it has none.
I could go on here but I know this is going to be deleted, however, if you want to read something to make you think and make you feel and make you see the view from the position of an atheist who has been through something as harrowing then please follow this link and read the words of a very intelligent and compassionate philosopher: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dennett06/dennett06_index.html
He says things far better than any of us could.
June 9th, 2008 at 3:16 pmAll right. There you go. I cleared a few - no wait, I’ll do even better and clear every last one of them. Hope that makes you feel better, it does me because this way, everyone can see what dicks you’re being. I don’t know what’s so difficult for you to understand about this being about a man in a coma and the feelings of his family in a time of crisis, but if you want to further the stereotype of atheists as being rude and insensitive, more power to you. Keep it up, you’re making your entire fellow-atheist community proud.
June 9th, 2008 at 3:52 pm“There are no atheists in Foxholes” In other words, Atheists are the only ones smart enough to stay out of foxholes.
June 9th, 2008 at 4:36 pmRachel,
I’ve added Joe and the rest of your family to our prayer list. As far as the morons who are using your thread as their personal soapbox with out taking the time to research your position, I have but one thing to say. It may not hold much impact, but all I can say is shame o n them. At a time like this, when you’re trying to get through such a trying time, dealing with worry and uncertainty to then have the likes of these “people” spewing such insensitive crap just pisses me off. I would hope that not all atheists are so f’ing mean.
I’ll keep praying for Joe et al.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:00 pmI can’t help myself…
“Aetheists are the only ones smart enough to stay out of foxholes.”
Or maybe they’re just to shallow to believe in something greater than themselves. Not merely religion per say, but even an old concept of right over wrong, good over evil, or the plight of the opressed.
Yes, I know not all atheists have such an elitist view, but that comment sure torqued me off.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:04 pmWell, no. They haven’t.
All the quote means is that when in mortal danger, it is human nature to plead to the unseen for help.
I’m an atheist, but have found myself begging for help when in a desparate situation. Afterward, when safety was restored, I could only think ‘well, that was pretty wierd.’
If you angry atheists have never been in such danger, well, that’s nice for you. But don’t expect it to last forever. Someday you’ll find yourself in a situation where you beg the universe to rescue you, and then you’l be saying ‘oh crap! Did I just pray? ugh, kill me now Lord! Oh shit! I just did it again. Jesus Christ! D’oh!’
June 9th, 2008 at 5:24 pmDear atheists, if you really want to have your say and engage people in logical, civil debate, here. Have at it.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:26 pmHope Rupert’s father gets better. I’m just an agnostic, so I’m afraid all I can offer is those hopes.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:10 pm[comment moved to appropriate thread - Rachel]
June 9th, 2008 at 7:51 pm“There are no atheists in foxholes” is simply a pleasantry, not a slam against ALL ATHEISTS WHO ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL FOR THEIR DISBELIEFS. Is that about how you see it?
I don’t know if the statement is true or false, but are you telling me that men and women in the military who go through rigorous training and are under fire are somehow threatened by this blog post? How weak do you think these atheist military staff are? Do they cry when they watch Oprah, too?
I suspect this is an issue made up from the projected insecurities of some very small people.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:23 amNo, it’s not true that “there are no atheists in foxholes.” Just because you believe in a god because of emotional issues doesn’t mean all people are susceptible to such irrationality. I’ve been in plenty of foxholes and never even thought of praying. Instead, I thought of the solution of how to get out of the situation and make it better. I can understand how a person could think they are atheist, and then start praying to a god when things get tough. However, it’s really quite arrogant to think that ALL people would react the same way as you to similar situations.
Rupert is in a bad situation and, hopefully, he’ll recover. However, I will not pray for him as I think it’s a silly ritual akin to casting healing spells. The best thing to do is stand by him and give him support.
Also, you could’ve avoided much of the “angry atheist” confrontation if instead of saying:
“There are no atheists in a foxhole.”*
Thanks to commenter Fozzy for reminding me of that quote - it really is true…
You said:
“There are no atheists in a foxhole.”
Thanks to commenter Fozzy for reminding me of that quote - In my case it was true
Steve Miller the cliche “there are no atheists in foxholes” is an insult to atheists. It’s another way of stating that atheists are wrong and, with enough fear, they’ll realize they are wrong.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:33 amAtheists should be smart enough to spell “atheists”.
And Rachel, my own prayers do go out to you and yours.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:42 amRachel, my prayers are with you all. Right now I’m sitting in a wheelchair thanks to some dude turning left in front of my bike. Bodywork ensued (my body working on his truck). The doc says I’ll probably keep the right leg below the knee. Being optimistic, I say I will. Either way, I ain’t walking for months.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:22 amJoe will have some hard times (& some damned boring ones) ahead. With family & friends such as he apparently has, it won’t be as bad. I know, ’cause I’m similarly blessed. Again, prayers follow.
This is not a “pleasantry”, this is an overused cliche perpetuated by theists that is an insult to atheists.
It is false. There are plenty of atheists serving in the military, I know a few and whether the one instance of the use of this cliche on this blog is threatening to them is not the point. The point is that you perceive that there is nothing wrong with saying it. That you take it as read. That you perpetuate a lie that belittles individuals who are serving to protect us. The atheists in the military do have far more important things to worry about, the ones serving in Iraq and Afganistan have very serious things to worry about. They also have another thing to worry about and that is the mistreatment they receive for being atheists in the military by people in the military. They deserve more respect.
No, you are wrong. This is atheists standing up and saying we will no longer be silent when we are insulted. That we deserve to be treated with a modicum of respect. We are expected to respect your choice in your belief but are not afforded this courtesy in return for our choice not to believe. No one seems to think there is anything wrong with treating us as if we are subhuman. We are expected to nod and smile and not question when people bring up their beliefs, when they attempt to thrust them on us but are reviled and belittled when we simply reply that we are atheists.
We do not fear your god, we do not fear hell, to us neither is real. What is real is what is going on here and now and that is what we must change, even if it is only the small change of getting people to understand that saying “their are no atheists in foxholes” is insulting.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:22 amPat Berry has some class, there. Kochanski, though I don’t know him, seems to be a hypersensitive ass.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:01 amIt ain’t about you & yours, Kochanski, nor about me. It’s about a bro who’s down.
Tennessee Budd, I understand that, I empathize. I have dealt with accidents, illness and tragedy among my family and friends. I know how hard it is to be able to do nothing to help someone in distress. For strength and hope, I go here, to the very wise and compassionate words of a gentle philosopher: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dennett06/dennett06_index.html
I just object to seeing a situation like this being turned into a bashing of atheists simply because some have objected to insults directed at us. I am voicing my concern and trying to foster some understanding, but apparently atheists are only worthy of ridicule and abuse.
I said above I do not fear your god or hell and that is correct, but I do fear individuals who see me as less than human, as being unworthy of simple courtesy and respect, especially when these individuals are ones who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:27 amI “get it” that you’re insulted. I “get it” that tough military types tremble in their boots when someone says the harmful words “no atheists in foxholes.”
Oh, how I “get it.” Now, would you please go squat somewhere else?
June 10th, 2008 at 3:24 pmYes, Steve, you get it. You simply just don’t care if atheists are insulted, berated, attacked and treated like dirt. I get it very well.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:17 pmThere are no atheists in foxholes is really more of a slam against believers. That’s why they are believers… they are in a freaking foxhole being shot at and their only hope is to turn to some invisible magical being.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:50 pmRachel, I hope your friend will be okay. I heard about your blog because of the atheist thing, but this one time, because of the cirumstances, I will drink my cup of STFUBISSS.
Is there anything you need help with? Are donations needed?
June 10th, 2008 at 9:33 pmI think for the most part everyone knows I am Rachel’s cousin. I could go into an hour long diatribe about how awesome Rachel is but I think everyone else has adequately established that fact in other comments. I do, however, want to point out I am grossly offended by the personal attacks on her character, persona and kindness. Those individuals, whatever label you give yourselves, have perpetrated the exact offense you so astutely and self-righteously state Rachel has committed. Therefore, I demand an apology to her for your disrespect; otherwise one could only come to the logical conclusion you are hypocrites. Nothing would please me more for you to prove me wrong. My patience is wearing thin. I would have effectively kicked your ass for far lesser offenses than what you have put her through the last couple of days. You obviously don’t like the words she used to characterize her feelings and have stated so but you have come to the erroneous conclusion anyone here gives a shit. Some may, I guess, but I for one do not. What I do give a shit about is my cousin and you are obviously causing her grief. Be a victim if you so choose, but for all the logic you seemingly uphold, your behavior is absolutely illogical and irrational.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:43 pmRachel …
Misha pointed me your way … prayer is sent.
Furthermore, may the Almighty surround Joe … and y’all … with His grace, which transcends what you and I might believe in.
Having spent too much time in hospitals with friends and loved ones over the years, I can understand … at least a little … of what you’re dealing with.
That notebook others have suggested is a great idea … for y’all need to be tightly in the loop.
I’ll have to use that idea myself … for with a hiatial hernia, a recent mini-stroke, and other problems, my wife will be seeing a fair amount of the inside of our hospital in the coming months. I look at it as a good way to keep things real, if and when the doctors start to take the phrase “practicing medicine” too literally.
If you feel so inclined and have the time, feel free to pray for us, even though our situation is not as serious as Joe’s. We need all the help we can get …
June 10th, 2008 at 11:07 pmHey-Just finished reading the Blog and all the comments. Rachel…I am glad to hear that things are improving for Joe. I applaud you for your courage to write as you have in this Blog site.
As to all the religious/anti-religious bashing going on here….folks get a life and acquire a little thicker skin!!!! This is not the proper forum for your “soap box” positions (whatever it may be)!
June 11th, 2008 at 7:23 amJoe has access to the best medical knowledge, technology and ability in the world, in the entire history of the world. For me that inspires confidence in the prospects for his reasonable recovery and well-being.
You, he and his loved ones have good reason to be confident.
There are no theists in operating rooms.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:29 pm