I know some of you are itching for a fight.
So here. Have fun with this.
The update I posted about Rupert’s dad was titled “There are no atheists in a foxhole.” Which anyone who reads here regularly would understand is my way of poking fun at myself, seeing as how publicly, on this blog, I’ve repeatedly identified myself as feeling like either an atheist or an agnostic, depending on my mood. I’ve regularly criticized Christians and their beliefs and have asked them to defend themselves, which they did, some nicely and some not. I’ve been very open about the fact that I simply don’t know the truth even though I’d like to, and that I find debates about religion interesting because they give you such a window into how other people think and view the world. There’s a whole category here called “Religion” but the point is, I have no religion. I reject organized Christianity and every other religion that’s ever been.
So I used that quote to describe the way I was feeling at that moment, while writing about a loved one who is in a coma. I was feeling down and sad and worried, and I used that quote because whenever I’m in a scary situation, I think about whether there’s a God, and I almost always find myself believing that there is because it helps me and comforts me to do so. The belief diminishes my suffering, simple as that. It may be wishful thinking but so what? It helps me and hurts no one.
Well. That post title really, really, really pissed off some atheists. An atheist forum linked to it and its members began peppering my comment thread - which remember, was for a post that was about a loved one being in a coma and that I wrote and titled while in an understandably emotional state - with things like this:
I am sorry to hear that you find the contribution of so many members of our military, such as Master Sergeant Gid L. White (retired), to be of no value.
- Foxhole AtheistIf you are going to pray “just in case”, I suggest you pray to as many different gods as possible. If not, you may be praying to the wrong one. And don’t forget to gather a few additional lucky charms while you’re at it. I suggest a rabbit’s foot, 4 leaf clover, and a horseshoe for starters. Then you might want to do a Google search for lucky charms. There may be a number of them recognized by other cultures which are effective that we don’t know about.
Then you might want to tackle eliminating all the bad luck charms. You never know, that might make a difference as well.
If you are comforted by these measures which give the appearance of ‘doing something’, then why limit them to simply praying to one potential god when there are so many other acts of magical thinking which are comforting in situations where there is little else one can control.
- SkeptigirlYour opening post is a lie. There ARE atheists in foxholes… even if you don’t “believe” there are. Pat Tilman was just such an atheist. Educate yourself and quit deleting posts who try to lessen the bigotry you spread. http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
Lying for Jesus is still lying. I hope your friend gets better. I hope he never is the bigot you are.
Just because your faith makes you feel all humble and honest… doesn’t make it true, you know.
- A Third Atheist (articulett)
Now. If someone other than me can please explain to these people why I might find those comments inappropriate for the subject at hand, why I might delete them to prevent any added stress on my boyfriend’s family who might read them, and why I completely freaked out and cussed a lot when I first saw them and started tossing them to moderation in a fit of anger and resentment that someone would have the BALLS to nitpick an albeit-untrue cliche that I used while emotional about my boyfriend’s family…that would be really great. Because I’ve left a few comments myself for them trying to explain it and they’re just not getting it.
They seem to think that the problem here is that I don’t want to hear anything that challenges my “beliefs.” Clearly, they haven’t bothered to read any of the archives and comments therein, which, if they did, would quickly disabuse them of the notion that no one gets to comment here unless they agree with me. It would also quickly disabuse them of the idea that I have any hard “beliefs” about this particular subject.
Last night, the last time I saw an incoming link to the forum on which I’m sure they’re still pummeling me, I clicked on it and read what they were saying. Apparently, I believe in Jesus and am a bigot, and also I don’t have a fundamental understanding of how the internet works because I’m stupid enough to believe it’s my right to delete comments on a web site that I own and pay for. The last comment I read said that all I needed to do to redeem myself was to apologize to atheists for repeating the foxhole quote, and that the fact that I reacted instead with anger just went to show that I need to learn some “tact.”
Yes. Really. I am the one who needs to learn tact. Because I got very angry when someone contributed something to my web site that I feared might deeply upset someone I love. I may be crazy, but it seems to me that those commenters up there that I quoted might need slightly more urgent and detailed lessons in tact.
Because can someone explain to me what kind of raging ASSHOLE goes onto a personal web site, reads a post about a loved one in a coma wherein the author asks for people to pray if that’s their thing, and picks a fight about the post title because it’s just SO FUCKING IMPORTANT to clarify that there are, in fact, atheists in foxholes? (I’m assuming we all know that ‘foxholes’ basically means ’seriously bad situations particularly in military combat.’)
Anyone? Can anyone explain it to me? Am I just missing their righteous justification because I’m emotional about Joe? Am I too fond of too many Christians and it has muddled my thinking even though they still haven’t converted me and never will?
What’s most ironic about this sort of thing is that people seem to want to achieve some goal, but they go about it in completely the wrong way. If the proper and just thing for me to do is to apologize for repeating a quote that is so deeply offensive to atheists, I will do that. But I’m a human being and I was extremely emotional all weekend while this was going on, and those fuckers just kept piling on, completely destroying any urge I initially had to apologize for the quote.
And right now, I can’t quite figure out in my head exactly what the high road would be. Would it be to apologize for offending atheists? Or would it be to completely ignore them because the specific ones in question were so goddamned rude for hijacking a thread about a coma victim? I really don’t know.
All I know is that this afternoon, they’re still on my ass. Yesterday I set comment moderation to moderate every comment from new commenters so I could have more control over what was showing up here on my own personal web site, and I’ve been just delighted to see the atheists are still so intent on having their say. At first, I got all pissed off again and left my own comment telling them to get over it.
Then they left a few more, so I figured, let them all out. Let them all see the light of day so that everyone else here can judge their merits for themselves. So I just cleared every single one of them. Because mind you, I never actually deleted any of their comments; I just moved them to the moderation folder to be dealt with later, after I calmed down.
I still have new-commenter moderation set so some comments that normally wouldn’t get stuck there still will. Just give me a little time to clear them out. I will clear every single comment made, EVEN IF IT SAYS I’M WRONG, as long as it’s civil and in no fashion whatsoever brings Joe or his family into it, because they have nothing to do with it now, on this thread.
Speaking of, I did learn a lesson from all this, though probably not the one the atheists were going for. The thing is, I realized I can never post about anyone in my family or Rupert’s family again, unless they specifically ask me to. They don’t want this kind of attention, and the potential fall-out from it could be devastating to some of my relationships. The minute I say one of their names or anything about them, someone out there could decide to say something about it in a forum, things that would be extremely hurtful if ever seen by the loved ones in question. It’s just not worth it. Clearly I messed up, thinking I could post on the internet about someone near and dear to me and that anything I said about their lives would stay here, on my blog, where I could control it. I won’t make that mistake again.
So I hope the atheists have gotten what they wanted from me. That’s what I’m here for, to use “offensive” quotes during emotional times and to be instructed with great gusto and attention about what a bigoted jackass I am so that I’ll never use such quotes again and all the world will learn what happens to you when you make that mistake. It’s really quite marvelous and I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m ready to join their organization RIGHT NOW, if they’ll have me.
They just seem like such kind and considerate people, out there teaching the world about tolerance and overcoming bigotry, spreading their word wherever they think it’s necessary for the furtherance of enlightenment and elimination of negative stereotypes about atheists, even if it means hijacking a thread on a personal blog about someone in a coma. Because TRUTH is all that matters, people. Learn it and live it.
Rachel,
I’m sorry you’ve gotten so much cr*p from people on both ends who care more about being right than being kind. I hope Rupert’s dad is doing better and will heal soon and completely.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:27 pmI don’t want to offend you, Rachel, but I often find Atheists a helluva lot more obnoxious than Christians. Where you may get a small percentage of wacky Christians, you will usually only get that same small percentage of normal atheists.
I know you’re not faithful, so you must be one of that small percentage.
But many (not all) atheists are lefties, and those on the left will hijack ANYTHING - even a thread about a sick loved one - for their purpose.
RG
June 9th, 2008 at 5:30 pmRachel,
June 9th, 2008 at 5:35 pmYou owe no one an apology!
Please do keep us updated on his progress and know that we’re as “here” for you as we can be, even if things have been tainted a bit by some smug, unholier-than-thou jerks.
What’s next? Rallies with people holding up signs suggesting all sorts of unpleasantness for those who insult atheism? Perhaps if you made some cartoons…
June 9th, 2008 at 5:35 pmHell, I’m an atheist, and I find that obnoxious.
Just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean you have to stop being a decent human being.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:37 pmDear Incoming “Atheist” Assbags:
Fuck You.
Warmest regards,
-Naughtius
June 9th, 2008 at 5:39 pmhttp://morrisao.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/atheism.jpg
That aught to set them off.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:40 pmMost atheists are just pissed because they’re not the center of the Universe.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:40 pmSome people confuse “freedom of speech” with “freedom to harm with speech”.
I get the same negative dump on from idiots because I’m a Scientologist. Many people seem to think their truth is the only truth that counts and they have the right and OBLIGATION to insult and put down others just because they’ve decided on a course of living that conflicts with the other person’s course of living. I ignore it usually (and regret it every time I don’t).
I was at a KFC one time and some jerk came in, started to smoke and was told by an employee there is no smoking in there. She responded really rudely saying they needed a sign and blah blah. He pointed to the sign. But what I observed is that after that, his mood and the manager’s mood both dropped from friendly and cheerful to being moody. When the clerk came near me (he was cleaning the floor), all I said was “How DARE you allow the attitude of someone else ruin yours!” He expressed shock at first, then laughed and thanked me and continued on working in a much better mood.
There are many who like others to feel bad about themselves. That’s why the spew the garbage that they do.
I am truly sorry you won’t be able to post about your family (that is inclusive of “Rupert”) any more. I know it helps to communicate when one is down and then to be penalized for communicating when one is down, that can really hurt. Been there, felt that.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:41 pmTHe asshat that told you to educate yourself should educate himself on the origins of the saying:
The precise origin of the phrase, coined some time during World War II, is uncertain. Various sources credit Lieutenant-Colonel William J. Clear, or Lieutenant-Colonel William Casey,[1] but the phrase is most often attributed to journalist Ernie Pyle. The line is used in the film “Wake Island”, which was released sometime in early 1942. In the book Ghost Soldiers, author Hampton Sides credits the origin of the phrase to “Father Cummings”, a chaplain present during the raid at Cabanatuan in 1945. ”
THe idiot has never heard anyone say that before? He really needs to pull his head out.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:41 pmI’m with rightgirl,
June 9th, 2008 at 5:42 pmPlease, please do not apologize. Those people are the rudist people in our society. Remember the clowns that went into a mass in drag in SF, just to show their disdain for religion (I know they think they were defending their lifestyle, but screw ‘em, It’s Mass). You may want to consider something else: I wouldn’t be surprised if at least some of them are targeting you because Vox Day, their hated enemy, has linked you a couple times lately. I read and comment at a variety of blogs, and except for one communist blog, I never leave insulting comments. They should learn the same respect. You have done nothing to apologize for.
Brad
Many people will stop at nothing to defend their beliefs, especially if they preceive themselves to be targets for those beliefs…*cough! *Scientologists *cough!*
Good manners be damned.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:45 pmThere is a class of atheist, call him the Evangelical Proselytizing Atheist, who is even more obnoxious and asinine than any Christian (with the possible exception of Fred Phelps, who is actually rejected by most Christians).
And I find them much worse. An overeager Christian will simply tell you you’re going to Hell. Fine, so far as I know he isn’t the gatekeeper, and his assessment of my destination is irrelevant. The atheist, on the other hand, will get right in my face and abuse me. All the while, he’ll be claiming that he acts solely on empirical evidence and rational thought.
Yeah, I’m convinced. Stop spraying your rational spittle on me, God Hater. Thing is, I am not a “believer” in any organized religion. I suppose I waver between being agnostic and a deist. I have far too many questions and uncertainties to even appreciate anyone who chooses to personally assault me over a matter of belief. So morons like these can be disregarded as not serious.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:45 pmHeck–I’m an atheist, too. Maybe agnostic but I’m definitely leaning to one side. But I hold no one else’s beliefs in contempt because they don’t jive with my own. Unless they’re totally asshats about it, and then they can kiss my ass.
Seems to me, from the comments you posted above, you’ve attracted the asshat variety.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:45 pmArticulett is a well-known idiot, who (surprise, surprise) used to be a big religious supporter. The views may have changed but the attitude is for life.
Skeptigirl… is usually a great person. I have no idea.
As I said in the other forum, I really want to apologize on behalf of, well… um, our forum. We really aren’t a bunch of raving nitwits, a few of them just apparently spilled over here. I’m an atheist because I don’t believe in God, not for the company.
I’m sorry you got to see the few nasties in our forum (one of whom was an evangelical Christian at one point, and I’m sure just as amazing for your side as she is for ours). It’s not representative of most of us, who just want to live out our lives. As for RightGirl’s post, the fact that she called us ‘lefties’ pretty much says all I need to on that subject, eh?
Are we somewhat offended by the atheist in the foxhole meme? Sure. I am. It suggests that atheism is an immature belief that won’t weather times of hardship, and anyone who struggles will inevitably become an atheist. Having weathered the loss of friends and loved ones, I can assure anyone who is curious that that’s not the case. I am very interested in philosophy, and I am frequently awed by the world around me, but I really don’t think that there’s a God. If anything, the size and scope of the universe is humbling precisely because it cares so little about us. It’s a very cold beauty - every pretty rose is nurtured in the soil of a thousand corpses. The fact that there is no greater scheme is what makes every triumph and every tragedy important. It’s what give meaning to our lives, with religion they’re just flavor on an eternal afterlife, and don’t matter one bit.
It was clearly inappropriate to bring annoyance with that particular saying into a personal post. So while I will understand the sentiment (in that I find the phrase offensive too), it was wildly out of place. Please accept this as coming from someone who does understand.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:46 pmRachel -
I just want to wish Rupert’s dad a speedy and successful recovery. I’m sorry that so many people chose to quibble over a quote instead of focusing whatever positive energy they could muster into Joe’s healing.
I may be an agnostic, but I still believe in wishing the best for those who need it when they need it most. Health and happiness to Joe, Rupert, and you.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:47 pmMy prayers are with your family during this difficult time.
You are discovering the painful truth about just how tolerant and loving the most vocal opponents of religious faith and practice really are.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:49 pmSri Yukteswar’s response to the scientist that failed to find proof that God exists went something like this: “so you failed to isolate God in your test tubes, I propose a new experiment. Examine yourself unrelentingly for 24 hours and wonder no more at the absence of God.”
June 9th, 2008 at 5:54 pmIf there’s one Commandment I can get behind, it’s George Carlin’s suggested Third Commandment (after the first two, consolidated from the original ten): “Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself!” For purposes of this Commandment, “atheism” and “agnosticism” count as “religions,” too.
Now, we’re all guilty of violating this one, now and again, in little ways. But the ultimate violation of this Commandment is someone who tries to push their religion on another…and I don’t think I’ve ever done that. I sure hope not.
I can’t change you, Rachel, or any of those atheists who are hassling you, or anyone else reading this. I haven’t the right, and I’d be a boor and a fool for trying. I can only change myself…and that’s a process that’s in work. But my journey is for my footsteps alone; to try and force it on anyone else just isn’t right. Would that others could say the same.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:54 pmOh, and by the way, when I posted, to most of the commentators (but particularly Brad): you people are exactly why we get so damn defensive. Someone says they’re a Buddhist, and Christian, a Deist, it’s all fine. But there’s a number of you who have some idea that if someone’s an atheist, they are (and this is a direct quote): “the rudist people in our society.”
You can be absolutely any religion you want, or even not very religious, and nobody cares. But say there’s no God, and immediately you’re scum of the earth. It doesn’t even come close to making sense. At least if you’re referring to Christians, they all share some set of base principles (the Bible, if nothing else). All we share is a lack of belief. Heck, you might as well compare a Hindu to a Muslim, because they both don’t believe in Christianity. Yet, we’re all in a group. We’re all left wing, we’re all rude, we all don’t care what other people think, we all trample on people’s opinions, etc. etc.
If I had to name that attitude, it would be bigotry. You are generalizing based on a religious belief, and it’s only acceptable because the religion is “none of the above.”
June 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pmWow. Just wow. Please don’t apologize, there’s no reason to do so. Anyone who could be so insensitive isn’t worth it.
I’m sending my prayers and best wishes to you and Rupert and Joe and his family.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pmRachel,
I hope Rupert’s dad gets better and FAST. And for the love of Pete do NOT apologize to these assholes! Only some jackass with less than half a brain could misunderstand what you meant. Ignore them and remember that WE love you and I’ll be praying for Rupert’s whole family.
(And I’m really sorry I didn’t send you that package yet. It was put in the moving van by mistake. It should be there in about a week!)
June 9th, 2008 at 5:58 pmYou’d think that someone who ostensibly claims to support our soldiers would make the effort to get their names right. It’s Tillman, ya idiot. With TWO Ls.
And I don’t believe Pat Tillman was ever confirmed to be an atheist, only that he “wasn’t religious” (which could mean anything).
June 9th, 2008 at 6:02 pmNo apologies necessary, whether you deleted the comments (as your right on your own property), or let ‘em through. My personal e-mail signature block has this quote…
June 9th, 2008 at 6:05 pmRachel:
I appreciate the fact that you mention your family on your blog, because I know you like to blog about people who matter to you. That’s both normal and admirable.
But I do understand if you choose not to discuss your family again to avoid exposing them to the rudeness of others.
I intend to continue enjoying your blog whether or not you ever mention family again. You have to do what you believe is best for your loved ones.
I also intend to continue asking God to heal Rupert’s father, even if you choose not to post his condition in the future.
And you haven’t asked for any advice from me. But if you did, I would say “Don’t Apologize For the Post Title”. Your choice of a post title is your business alone.
Craig
June 9th, 2008 at 6:06 pmOh for Pete’s sake, to use another religious based phrase. First, who the devil does anyone think they are to tell you that you shouldn’t pray? Self-righteous prigs. Remind me that the next time someone they love is injured I need to seek them out and exhort them to pray. Doesn’t matter one iota about THEIR feelings on the matter. That during a loved one’s serious injury might not be the very best time to give a half-brained lecture on logic and faith. That they are being as annoying and hate-filled as those they rant against. This is NOT the time to be shooting your damn fool mouth off about something that isn’t your business to begin with!
Second, its a quote you ninnyhammers. It originated with soldiers during the most horrific conflict in our history. It can mean so very many different things. In today’s service, it tends to mean that everyone is there because they believe in something. Might not be God, might be a concept, might be family, but they sure as hell BELIEVE when they are under fire.
Finally, I am keeping him in my prayers, and hope that he is in as little pain as possible and that he recovers soon. I pray because that is what I believe, and anyone who would tell me that I can’t … can go to hell, to use a particularly apt phrase.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:10 pmGreyICE, I’m no bigot.
You seem nice and polite, but sorry, you are wrong. I work a job in which I encounter a lot of athiests (science prof at a huge university), and no one comes across with such arrogance, and childish snarkyness, as your comrades in anti-religion. This is not personal, no one knows my worldview, because as a lapsed leftist, exposing that would jepardize my position. It is strictly from observation, which I’m pretty good at.
“But say there’s no God, and immediately you’re scum of the earth.”
June 9th, 2008 at 6:10 pmNo, no, no. Say “you’re an idiot for believing in God, you’re stupid, you’re vacuous…blah, blah, and that’s when people feel you’re pretty scummy.
Perhaps if you had been less hypocritcal with your deletion of posts, there’d be less room to crticize you. As it stands you whined about people using your issue to make points and then deleted the points you disagreed with.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:12 pmFirst, my deepest wishes that Rupert’s dad gets well quickly.
Two, this is YOUR blog, think of it like your property, you can delete to your heart’s content. Those jerks don’t maintain, you do. Also, your blog = you don’t have to apologize.
People are so rude online, ignore the stupidity.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:17 pmDo not apologize to them. They do not dserve an apology. People have a right to free speech, they DO NOT have a right to not be offended by somebody else’s free speech.
The “I am atheist, hear me roar” crowd needs to get over themselves, but they’re too short-sighted to do so. They’re so busy bubbling over with Self-Righteous Indignation(tm) to realize that they’re the only ones who look stupid in this mess.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:17 pmI’ve noticed that too and I have a theory on why that might be.
The way I figure it, most of the people who claim to be “atheists” aren’t.
They go around saying “I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in God” but they aren’t doing it out of any sincere belief in the non-existence of God. They’re doing it because they think it makes them sound “cool” and “edgy” and “counterculture” and whatnot. They think they’re giving a big middle finger to “The Man” and leading a righteous rebellion against the Christian Culture of Corrosive Conformity or whatever infantile name they’ve come up with to describe people who think differently than they do. And since atheism is seen as the “intellectual” viewpoint, they assume that calling themselves an atheist makes them magically more intelligent than those who don’t. They think they’re much more intelligent than the rest of us plebes because they were smart enough to figure out God doesn’t exist.
But if they ever sat down and seriously examined their belief system, they’d realize that their claims of being an atheist are just that, claims. They aren’t beliefs. Most of them have never considered the full ramifications of a Godless universe. And if they did, most of them wouldn’t be atheists for very long.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:20 pmApparently, along with believers, there are quite a few pedants in foxholes.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:22 pmI’ve been reading your blog for the last couple of months, and I enjoy it. One thing I’ve noticed, though, is that you take your commenters a little too seriously. I know it’s hard to not take things personally, but these (drive by) people don’t even know you. Their opinions, including mine, are of no value to you. If they’re upsetting, just ignore them (us). You don’t have to justify yourself to them. You don’t owe them your existence.
I’ve never commented here before but I started to feel bad about your being ganged upon by people who don’t even read your blog regularly. So who cares about what they think or say? Let them wallow in the misery of their ignorance and bigotry. The worst thing that can happen to a passionate advocate is for noone to take them seriously at all.
I hope Rupert’s dad recovers and does better. I’m not a practicing Catholic anymore, but I did say a prayer for him. As for the “atheist in a foxhole” controversy, I remember reading a long time ago what’s called “A Soldier’s Prayer”:
Oh my God, if there’s a God,
Save my soul, if there’s a soul.
Take care.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:26 pmI TOTALLY feel your pain. I made a comment about the FWISD’s PEAK program on the FW Star-Telegram page yesterday, and got totally flamed by someone who decided I needed to be put in my place. (Apparently freedom of speech = freedom from thinking before you speak.)
I seriously wonder if these people would have the cajones to say these things if they didn’t have a computer to hide behind.
I vote for NOT apologizing. You can say what you want in your house…if they don’t like it, they don’t have to come visit.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:27 pmDon’t apologize.
Fuck them, and not in the good, fun way. One, this is your site, and if you wanted to rant about Jesus all day long that’s your right, and you have NO obligation to let a bunch of douchebags comment. Same if you were taking the other side. So they have absolutely no merit to complaining there.
They have NO right to come here and be assholes. Period, end of story. They can be assholes elsewhere if they want, but only if the owner of where-ever they decide to be assholes allows it.
I agree with RightGirl — on the internet, I’ve come across a LOT of just plain *offensive* atheists like this. Not all atheists, not by a long shot, just these type who feel the need to tell EVERYONE they’re atheists and that they’re RIGHT and no one else is, and Christians are poopyheads. Or whatever fires them up. I’m sure there are jackass Christians, too, they just don’t seem to flock to the same places I do (being a sci-fi nerd has some advantages…)
Anyone who would go after you on that post over something as silly as a phrase everyone has heard deserves to go to hell. Whichever religion has the worst “hell”? That’s the hell they should go to.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:28 pmBut….if you have to keep your religion to yourself…..and the Third Commandment of your religion says “Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself!”……how do you tell people to obey the Third Commandment?
Kif, we have a conundrum.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:33 pmRachel, You have no reason to apologize (well, maybe at first, if someone had merely gently pointed out the fallacy of the quote — but who would be so uncouth as to point that out in a post about your concern for Rupert’s Father?!?)
At this point? HELL NO!!! Those fuckers can take a hike.
FYI this is coming from a NON-RELIGIOUS person who hasn’t decided one way or the other about religion & god. NOT a Christian.
I also notice the the foreign commenters STILL seem to have the impression that you are a Christian, even though you say you’re not, a LOT. Jeez!
The sad thing is that stuff like this is why so many great bloggers quit. Please don’t quit.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:33 pmGreyICE, this is you, less than 10 minutes earlier:
“Articulett is a well-known idiot, who (surprise, surprise) used to be a big religious supporter.”
Why the sarcastic “surprise, surprise” crack? What does it matter that this “Articulett” used to be a “religious supporter” (whatever that means)?
June 9th, 2008 at 6:33 pmI feel like smacking those assholes.
I sincerely hope that this goes past you, you don’t deserve to be more fragilized than this ordeal already makes you feel.
Still thinking about Mr. Joe, and you. Stay strong, nevermind the noise.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pmLol this is the reversal of what im used to seeing here.
Athiests are now getting mad at Rachel?… looks like you’ve got both sides to deal with now.
Hot damn, Why is everyone so worried about offending eachother? or rather, why do people get so offended so easily?
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. — Lol looks like kindergardeners have it down pretty well. as for full grown adults… it’s pretty sad.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pm“There are no atheists in a foxhole.”
That’s what got you spam assaulted by these pimple covered idiots? A hundred years old colloquialism?
In a thread about a family member with a serious medical condition? You have got to be kidding.
You know, the family stuff, and the unique way you express it, the dogs and Rupert and all, that’s a major attraction of your blog Rachel (for me anyway). Don’t let a bunch of douchebags ruin your blogging. Just delete their crap.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pmI think we are seeing the power of God expressed as….RACHEL!!!! She’s better than lightning or a plague of boils on really stoooooopid people!
Go God! Go Rachel!
And best wishes to Joe, his family, (including Rachel, Rupert, the Dogz, et, et.
And even God Bless teh stoopid.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:38 pmAdam, since everyone’s hell is personalized, I believe the worst hell would be the one Elvis would end up in if he went to hell. There, the only music is sung by Shatner, the only food is Brussels sprouts, and the only drink is south Florida coastal tapwater.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:38 pm“Anyone? Can anyone explain it to me?”
Ummm, ’cause they’re assholes?
June 9th, 2008 at 6:41 pmRachel: I hope Joe is better. All of you, hang in there!
On the side issue of atheism vs religion. . . I think it’s a lot like people who are gay but have never admitted it to themselves. They STAY pissed off at gays. IMHO, people who claim to be atheist but can’t stand to discuss religion probalby harbor a secret faith.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:47 pmI suppose you’ve run into the type of atheist who has a problem with heretical thought. No one expects the Atheist Inquisition, their main weapon is surprise, surprise and overblown outrage… their TWO main weapons are.. *ahem* I’ll stop.
As for “freedom of speech” I don’t see them getting their own blogs. A comments section is like a pub where folks can meet and discuss things. These particular individuals are acting like abusive drunks and are whingeing about their so-called right to piss over the floor without any consequence.
I’d summon the bouncers.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:53 pmRachel -
June 9th, 2008 at 7:05 pmSeems to me, from seeing the number of replies you get to you posts, that there are a lot of people out there who appreciate your writing enough to want to comment on it. It would be a sad thing if you ended up not telling us about family and friends, but ultimately, that choice is up to you. As far as comment approval, I use it on my site, just to filter out the certifiable nutballs who end up pirating a thread for their own personal use. To them I say, you have a complaint, by all means, get your own blog, don’t use mine as your soapbox (I’m already up there, and it’s a small soapbox).
In any event, please know I’m praying for you, Rupert and his dad, as well as the rest of your family (yes, the dogs, too). Hang in there.
From Rachel’s post:
Good grief. I’m an atheist too, but I like to think I’m not an asshole.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:09 pmI understand why Rachel might get upset, that one of her relatives who thinks prayer actually makes a difference could be hurt by a comment that says it doesn’t. But when you think about it, why would they be upset by such a comment? Do they think that expressing honest doubts cancels out the power of prayer, making it more likely that Joe won’t pull through? Is it like the audience trying to save Tinker Bell with applause, and everybody has to clap or it just won’t work?
I was in the hospital myself a little over a year ago, having emergency surgery that saved my life. I was never tempted to pray for my recovery. Not once did I ask anyone to pray for me, though this being America, most people seemed to think it was important to tell me that they were doing so. I didn’t take offense, because they don’t know I’m an atheist, and I don’t think they need to know. I mentally translated their “I’ll be praying for you” into what I felt they were really trying to say, “I hope you recover,” and let it go. I have recovered, and I thank the doctors for saving my life. While I appreciate the support of friends and family, a simple “I love you” was more powerful to me than someone who assumed the existence of a supernatural force, and presumed their whispering to it could actually alter the course of events.
None of your friends, family, or prayer group are doctors, and none of their hopes or prayers is likely to have any effect one way or the other on Joe’s recovery. The two relevant factors are Joe’s constitution and the quality of the medical care he’s receiving. I’m sorry, Rachel, if you or Joe’s relatives is going to be upset if someone states the obvious, and I do understand the desire to “do something” even in situations like this one in which there’s nothing really that you can do except comfort one another on the sidelines.
I hope, for your sake, that Joe does recover completely. I also know that there are likely to be people dying every week in the same hospital, with the same number of people praying for their recoveries as are praying for Joe now. Those who recover will help convince the people praying for them that prayer is effective, and those who don’t will do nothing to persuade the people praying for them that it wasn’t. Prayers and heavens are like fairy tales for adults, fictions meant to be comforting in the face of painful facts. If my saying that upsets anyone, it’s probably a sign that they recognize on some level that they’re lying to themselves. Their anger toward me, the insensitive atheist, is misplaced, but if it helps them in some way (they don’t want to be angry at God for ignoring their sincere prayers, do they?), I’m happy to be their lightning rod.
I haven’t taken the time to read your archives, and probably won’t be back to see whether or not you delete my comments for “rude atheism.” I’m not insulted that anyone would claim there are no atheists in foxholes, because I know there are. I also understand that you weren’t making such a claim, but merely expressing your feelings. I know it’s frustrating in your situation, wanting to help and being practically powerless to do so. I realize that many, perhaps most, people in your situation turn to prayer as a cultural fallback, “don’t know what else to do” reaction. While I don’t fault you for that per se, I would caution you about the downside.
There may be more that those of you gathered around the bedside can do, and throwing up your hands while falling on your knees may actually blind you to some constructive actions you could be taking. By conceding powerlessness in such a fashion, you may be predisposing yourself to “give it to God” instead of searching for more constructive answers. Maybe someone on the internet has faced a similar situation, and the doctors treating Joe are not aware of a treatment which could be more effective, but you can find it with Google. Maybe the doctors know exactly what Joe needs, but won’t communicate it effectively to the family unless you ask the right questions.
Instead of simply being offended that someone would be so insensitive as to compare your prayers to a collection of good luck charms, maybe you could consider for a moment that they might be right. You say it probably doesn’t hurt to pray, but if prayer fills that “doing something” place in your mind so that an action which might actually make a positive difference isn’t recognized, maybe prayer DOES hurt. I would never say that your legions of friends on the internet should stop praying, but most of them seem to stop at prayer. I’m sorry if it’s insensitive to say this, but the surgeries, medicines, tools and techniques which saved my life wouldn’t have been invented if everyone in the past had simply prayed for a cure and let it go at that.
If prayer is all you’re doing, all you’re doing is pretending that magic really works. If there is an almighty eternal creator of the universe, who bends the laws of reality in response to pleas from His groupies, He can surely shift events at the time of the accident so that not only would Joe be wearing a helmet, but the accident would be avoided altogether. Pray for that.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:14 pmObviously no one has explained to you the difference between an atheist and an anti-theist.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:14 pmMadam Lucus,
It a very well known fact that there are assholes everywhere, regardless of Religious or lack off Religious convictions.
That is all…
June 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pmI’m an atheist. I hate assholes. I understood the spirit of your title and saw no offense. Some people just need to find their sense of humor and use that muscle when they see someone is suffering from the potential loss of a family member instead of immediately assuming, rather selfishly, that the universe revolves around them and whether they’re offended or not.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:18 pmChuck,
June 9th, 2008 at 7:19 pmirregardless is not a word; just being helpful, not mean
[Heh - I'm in one of those moods where I fix spelling and grammar mistakes on comments just because it's fun to do and I always wanted to be an editor. So now your comment makes no sense because I you posted it seconds after I fixed it for him. So that's why I'm adding this note. LOL - Rachel]
Writer’s Blockhead -
A hell with South Florida coastal tapwater?
Now that is undeservedly cruel!
June 9th, 2008 at 7:20 pmJoining the chorus-
No apology necessary, Rachel! Post as you see fit.
The offended atheists should remind themselves that civility is at least as important as content in a privately hosted forum of this nature. Be prickly and offended if you like, but be advised that you may well be mocked for your pains.
Snark away once you’ve become a regular contributor and are somewhat known, but even then BE CIVIL.
The fun of this comment section is its eclectic mix of opinion and belly laughs, and this is made possible by the respect commenters here show for Rachel’s expectations of civility. Got an argument? Then bring it, but have the courtesy to be mindful of the emotional tone the post sets.
(gets off soap box)
June 9th, 2008 at 7:23 pmThe only apology you need to offer those ever-so-classy Dawkinites is to say how sorry you are that they’re a bunch of smug, self-worshipping douches just asking for a beating with a Clue-by-4.
And I say this as a braindead, unevolved Godbag. =B
June 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pmAnother Atheist,
You still don’t get it, and most likely never will. As your last comment so tellingly shows.
Google it for an expert medical opinion. That’s an all time keeper.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pmI think this hits the nail on the head. I would rather spend a week with a family of evangelical christians than an hour with an evangelical atheist which is what those people definitely are. They’ll be much nicer to me even though I’m a heathen in their eyes for not seeing things exactly the same, and I’ll hear about God a whole lot less.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:42 pmRachel,
Next time you change the masthead, you should have a contest for the most “unique” way of working in the “…no atheists in foxholes” quote. That’ll light ‘em up.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:42 pmApologize to atheists? What? I have been all over the map in terms of belief, am probably an atheist now, but having dug fox holes, I cannot imagine someone being offended by what you wrote. Sheesh, it’s almost as if they were thin skinned and looking to be offended. Quit kneeling in front of Obama, you delicate souls, and go do something of use…
June 9th, 2008 at 7:47 pmThis is a shining example of how in the blogosphere, people have a tendency to create their own reality.
I prefer the genuine article.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:54 pmAllen, you just beat me to it. Another Atheist just doesn’t get it, and I doubt he ever will.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:54 pmRachel, what I’m about to say has been said before but I’ll chime in anyway.
First, it’s your blog. Your blog, your rules.
Second, do not apologize. You owe no one an apology. If people don’t like what they find here when they surf in from elsewhere, they can go away and not come back. Attendance here is not mandatory.
Third, assholes come in all stripes. They all seem to share one characteristic, however. Well, two. One, they’re notoriously thin-skinned. Two, they have no respect for anyone else. Everything else is variable.
Fourth, I hope Joe is doing well and send my best to you and all of your peeps. And the dogs, too.
As for the assholes, fuck ‘em. Not literally of course, because…. ewww.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:55 pmBrad makes the observation that:
in the same comments page where Naughtius says:
and Adam Lawson says:
and Mata Hari says:
and N. O\\\’Brain says:
So, Brad, you wanna restate your observation in light of these quotes or would you like to remain an ignorant bigot?
June 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pmGood health for Joe, and comfort for the family. my prayer for you.
As to atheists in/or not foxholes. I have been in a few, never saw one there.
No apologies, and at least keep us posted on Joe.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:57 pmAllen, I went to the emergency room again a couple of months ago, thinking I might be having a heart attack, because I had pain in my shoulder, and my arm was numb. They did an EKG, charged me $500, tried to convince me I needed an MRI too (which I declined, since the EKG had dispelled my concerns about a heart attack) and sent me home.
The next day, I went to see my regular physician, who said it might be arthritis, prescribed pain pills and scheduled me for an X-ray (which would be a pre-requisite to an MRI under my insurance coverage). I didn’t go for the X-ray right away, but I did spend a couple of days looking through symptoms on the internet. I found some hits, which led to other hits, which led to a couple of descriptions of “pinched nerve.” At that point, the numbness in my arm had spread to my fingers, and I realized that was what I had. The internet sites said the usual treatment was just to let time take its course, and that it would take weeks or months to heal. The internet was right, and it’s almost completely healed now.
I suppose in this case, praying would have been just as effective, but for a guy like me, actual knowledge is just so much more comforting. You can scoff at Googling for medical advice, but Google came through for me where two doctors had not, with the limited time we had to exchange questions and answers. I scoff at your prayers, though I’m sure at least some of you have stories about how it absolutely made the difference for you. To each his own.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pmI am both 1) a person who does not believe in a deity, and 2) a Person who is for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
I militantly shun both implied labels for identical reasons.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pmI can think of a lot of things to describe those comments, but “honest doubt” isn’t one of them.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pmOh, hell! I’ve been at an advising training all day so couldn’t check in at lunch …
So YEAH, ATHEIST INTERLOPERS!
What everyone else said! Double STFUBYSSS (at least on the other thread…)!
“There are no atheists in a foxhole” is used in this context as a platitide, kind of like:
“You are proof that evolution can go in reverse.”
“Sometimes, you can’t see the forest for the trees.”
Or the ever popular:
“Don’t bite off more than you can chew.”
You don’t see me googling the platitude listed below and then pissing in the Lucky Charms of your atheist brethern when THIS platitude is used:
“Religion is the opiate of the people.”
So here, assholes, is one (or two) last platitudes.
“No sense beating a dead horse.” AND:
“Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.”
Oh no, Rachel, the “World Jockey Association” is gonna rain down a shit-storm because you are now advocating “animal abuse and necrophilia.” Then of course, “Equine Fuckers of America” will have to chime in with their two cents, leading inevitably, of course, to armageddon.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pmSorry ’bout that.
Rachel,
First, my best wishes for Joe, I know this is a hard time for him and his family. I fell off a 40 foot cliff last July, shattering my hip and fracturing my skull… I don’t think there’s ever a good time to wake up in a hospital, and being afraid of what will happen when the bandages come off makes it even worse.
Second, as to your atheists… All I have to offer on that one is another old quote: You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all the people all the time. Don’t let their vitriol get to you, offending people is part of being alive, just by existing at some point you’ll offend someone.
Third, it’s your blog. You can do as you wish with it. Even more so, since I notice that it’s actually rachellucas.com, not rachellucas.randombloghosthere.com. You pay the bills, we’re all just guests, even the ones that give some money to keep the lights on. Your house, your rules.
Hope you have a great night, and don’t let folks wind you up too much. Remember, at the end of the day, they don’t really exist anyway, because it’s all electrons.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pmHehe. It sure did, Zeero. I had to delete quite a few really demented comments from that crowd. I was debating with one of them who seemed to at least keep a civil tongue in his head, but when it became obvious he was just going to go on and on, I ended up putting a stop to it.
Rachel, you owe nothing to any of us. It’s YOUR blog - end of story. Your house, your rules.
That you choose to share your take on life, the universe and everything in such an often insightful and funny manner is a blessing. If it ever becomes a chore, I think you’d give it up right then and there. The fact that you enjoy it so much is a main part of what we find attractive, I think.
I hope Joe has a speedy and full recovery - I’m certainly praying for that.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:04 pmRachel, you are a disgusting little shit. There are other people in the world, with different beliefs than yours, especially considering you change yours about as often as you change your clothes.
So take a bit of advice from someone who knows the ways of the world:
June 9th, 2008 at 8:10 pmDon’t take pot shots at people, and they won’t take them back at you.
[This was left on the post about Joe but I moved it here because like I said, that post is about Joe; THIS post is for the Angry Atheists to show their ass. I ought to post his email address, too. Trying to take the high road here, though. For now anyway. - Rachel]
Foxhole Atheist’s original comment seemed pretty mild to me, simply pointing out that the quote wasn’t true. Perhaps it was off-topic, or just plain unwelcome in that thread, as some commentators explained politely. But just two comments after FA’s initial comment, he was called an “asshole,” and at some point, Rachel edited his comment to refer to him as a “complete and total asshole” and an “insensitive shithead.”
So I don’t think it was the atheists who were “itching for a fight.” And certainly in this thread, the nastiest things so far are being said by “your” side. Which is fine, it’s Rachel’s party, etc., but your moral high ground looks a little shaky to me.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:16 pmNRen2k5, you are a hopeless twit. Don’t take potshots at our Rachel, and we won’t take them back at you.
How do you know how often Rachel changes her clothes? Are you stalking her? Should we notify the police? That’s sarcasm, by the way, since I’m quite certain you don’t possess the ability to perceive the nuance without assistance.
I just remembered another “asshole” characteristic — they are incapable of conceiving of a situation that isn’t all about them.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:18 pmSezMe:
Ignorant bigot? What tripe, you fool. These people are not going to some shit blog you admire and posting angry responses; they are here and shooting back at stupidity directed at the host, fool. Look chump, you’re just looking for a place to shit insults. Good job.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pmAnother Atheist,
What makes you think I pray? This is why you’ll never get it, you make unfounded assumptions. I do not believe in a deity, but I do believe that many people can show their best traits through holding a belief in one.
When my wife laid dying two years ago, many people offered to me and her their prayers, it warmed me. I saw it for what it was, their heartfelt outpouring of empathy in the most sincere way they had.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pmAnother atheist,
June 9th, 2008 at 8:21 pmWhere the devil did you get the idea that we are talking about prayer instead of medical treatment? You are playing with one of the most idiotic ideas about religious people, that they are somehow anti-science. He is in a hospital being treated by real, live doctors with their real, live machines and their real, live medicines.
NRen2k5 Says:
^^ what?????!!!
you should sue his ass, it’s all I’m saying.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:22 pmI see a vision of a future hell….I go to one of my favorite websites…and see the following:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4 August
Woke up. Day proceeded along expected parameters. Ate as Required. Dark now, expecting to sleep soon.
-rachel
5 August
Woke up. Day proceeded along expected parameters. Ate as Required. Dark now, expecting to sleep soon.
-rachel
6 August
Woke up. Raining. Otherwise normal day. Ate as Required. Dark now, expecting to sleep soon.
-rachel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now I don’t normally quote Glen Beck, but somebody get me some duct tape, because MY HEAD IS ABOUT TO EXPLODE!
Please do not let this aberration change the content and function of this site. You need to vent, and we need the vicarious venting.
Prayers for your family.
DanB
June 9th, 2008 at 8:23 pmThese “atheists” are self-righteously pathetic and poorly mannered sociopaths. These are probably the people who really are living in their parents’ basements.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:23 pmRachel,
I am truly sorry for what happened, and my family and I will pray for you and your family.
I really enjoy your blog, and I hope you still keep us in the loop about your family. I understand if you don’t.
I am a Christian, and I believe that people (Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Atheists, etc.) evangelize their faiths (partly) by the way they act towards others. This is why I cringe when I hear about a Christian telling someone they’re going to hell (although I must say Idon’t know a Christian who said that to anyone, to my knowledge). I invite the atheists who’ve posted here to take an honest look at their comments and ask themselves if they’ve furthered their cause, or hindered it?
As for SezMe’s snarky post about who is ruder, it looks to me that the atheists started it, and I doubt they would be nicer to people who went on their friend’s blog to insult and belittle them in a time of crisis. Blaming the injured for his injury was particularly cruel.
Rachel, I love your dogs, and I hope that you’re taking comfort in them.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:24 pmHere’s a temporary blog title to REALLY annoy the hell out of a certain segment of commenters (you know, just until they return to their hovels):
“Rachel Lucas: The world is going to hell and I’m driving the bus”
June 9th, 2008 at 8:29 pmMy Grandpa was a WWII Medic. He didn’t subscribe to any religion. He often quoted “there are no atheists in foxholes.” During WWII he didn’t have to worry about offending anyone because nobody got their panties in a bunch for PC reasons way back then. And why in the world would you need to worry about what atheists think when you have been chronicalizing your journey with atheism/agnosticism? Seriously if they have a problem with it, it’s their problem.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:30 pmPlease don’t let them get you upset. You were speaking of yourself and your religious beliefs. If they took it personal don’t let it bother you. Then they win. I know it’s easier to say than to do.
Think of it this way. The increased traffic will be good for blogads, right?
This is your party. You control the show. You can say whatever the hell you want to say.
Dane Cook says it well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wts-dntnyh4
Rachel,
First, I’m a new reader. I’ve found several posts to be humorous, and some poignant. I set out on a quest a couple of weeks ago to find female bloggers that have a conservative bent. I’m not sure why your name popped up, but I’ve been following along. I empathize with your wanting to DO SOMETHING with regard to the current state of affair in the US.
I can add some light as to why the “Atheist in the Fox Hole” title drew so much controversy. I grew up Catholic in a very loose sense of the religion. My parents baptized me as a baby. My parents divorced when I was 5. I received my First Holy Communion when I was seven because my Mom made sure my sister and I did the bare minimum. I somehow managed to get my Confirmation sacrament (again because my Mom made the base effort even though we didn’t go church every Sunday). Long story short: Religion wasn’t a profound part of my life growing up. IT IS NOW. Why?? WHAT CHANGED? I became an adult, got married and had children. I recognized the value of it in my heart and wanted it in my life and for my children.
I’m going to say something you won’t want to hear. You are still grappling with issues most adults deal with in their twenties. I am only 5 years older than you, but when I read your posts, I think I’m reading posts from a twenty-something kid.
I give you credit for your recent soul searching and volunteerism. You are on the right path. Don’t eliminate “organized” religion just because it’s “organized.”
just me
June 9th, 2008 at 8:48 pmRudeness is epidemic these days — especially on the web. One of the reasons I always read your blog is that you and your commenters are (for the most part) civil and intent on debating actual issues rather than engaging in flame war shout-downs. Why would I consider taking advice from anyone who is too dim to even know how to behave in a public forum? What could he possibly ‘teach’ me other than how ugly and petty his own little life is?
Please don’t apologize to them, Rachel. They’re not worthy of your attention or time.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:49 pmShocked that atheists behave like atheists. After all, who’s to hold them (ultimately) accountable? I respect and am grateful for certain atheists who comport themselves well in civil company, but I am not in the least taken aback by others whose behavior accurately reflects their nihilist anti-belief system. Nor am I surprised at the potential for vitriol from my fellow believers, given our inherently sinful natures.
In other words, people are dicks.
And please read this only as a cordial criticism of what I believe to be a flawed and dangerous philosophy, as opposed to a targeted attack on any individual (though NRen2k5 clearly warrants a smackdown).
June 9th, 2008 at 9:05 pmI’m not going to get into this dead-horse beating about who is an asshole and who isn’t. It angers me that the thoughts and words of others have forced you to keep from publishing what you want on your site.
With that, I hope you enjoyed the non-funny pictures of my dogs and I continue to pray for all of you.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:14 pmProps to Craig, he said something pretty profound in the comments on another post…
“Listen to understand, not to refute.”
A couple of visitors would have saved a lot of grief on everyone around here if they had kept that in mind, when they read the original post.
Many commentors on both sides of this have expressed themselves very well, but there is a large difference between a public debate, and being a guest.
Rachel did not go to their site, and announce “There are no Atheists…”, they came here, to her home. There is dang little excuse for coming in here and being, if nothing else, rude. And if your first comment on this site is to imply that our hostess does not appreciate the sacrifices of ANY servicemember, well, you are not only rude, but you might well be ignorant as well. You might want to get that looked at.
Fortunately, while stupidity is terminal, ignorance (and rudeness) are curable. When Rachel announces plans for a debate, “Resolved: There are no atheists in foxholes”, we can all come in here, debate the factual merits of a historical quote, and announce our intent to amend the saying to “There is a statistically lower percentage of Atheists to be found in foxhole that can generally be found in the total population.” with provisions for the U.S. vs other countries, the impact of Christianity (both evangelical and otherwise), Islam, Wicca and other organized religions on percentages of Atheists, etc. Or we might resolve that the horrors of war result in a statistically higher number of Atheists in foxholes. We can then move on to “Resolved: Rachel Lukas shall be persecuted by P.E.T.A. for the ongoing abuse of her pets for fun and profit, the abuse committed because Miss Lukas is allowed unsupervised use of a digital camera and internet access”.
The point is that the post was not an invitation to debate, it was the reflections and observations of a woman enduring a crucible in her personal life. Listen to understand, not refute. She merely asked for support and understanding during a difficult time, when her desire is for abuse, I’m sure that she will ask at that time, and of course, as loyal minions, we will provide.
DanB
June 9th, 2008 at 9:17 pmBTW, I prayed for Rupert’s Dad and Rupert’s family.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:17 pmI think there are more atheists here than the religious people think, we usually just keep our mouth shut about it unless the topic is religion or lack there of.
These rude so called atheists are no different than religious zealots who believe the answer to any question is that it’s gods will. Both are equally obnoxious.
In my opinion ban these idiots from ever posting here again they use the excuse of being offended to justify their lack of manners.
and by the way irregardless is a word my dictionary says so.
irregardless (îr´î-gärd´lîs) adverb
Non-Standard.
Regardless.
[Perhaps from ir(respective) + regardless.]
Usage Note: The label Non-Standard does only approximate justice to the status of irregardless. More precisely, it is a form that many people mistakenly believe to be a correct usage in formal style but that in fact has no legitimate antecedents in either standard or nonstandard varieties. (The word was likely coined from a blend of irrespective and regardless.) Perhaps this is why critics have sometimes insisted that there is “no such word” as irregardless, a charge they would not think of leveling at a bona fide nonstandard word such as ain’t, which has an ancient genealogy.
Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
It automatically adds this when ever I copy/past something
Also I hope Joe gets better soon
June 9th, 2008 at 9:22 pmbest regards
An atheiest.
Defending one’s own blog-territory is not rude. The atheists came in with their pitifully pedantic guns a’blazing. That’s rude. And telling.
Giving ‘em five across the eyes is just good sense, and perfectly within the bounds of the escalation of hostilities.
This blog-ground is not in dispute, so no amount of children crying for “fairness” holds any sway. Don’t like it? Go write your own blog post and track it back. But don’t shit in someone else’s living room, even if that is the way you conduct yourself in your own home.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:30 pmI’d like you to point out where anyone advocated prayer as a replacement for medical treatment.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:44 pmHaving traveled a lot I’ve met a lot of people. Many of those people have been atheists. What is the one thing that most of them shared: a ridiculously large opinion of themselves and their own beliefs colored by the certainty that anybody who believes in God is a complete moron. I’ve met exactly one person who claims to be an atheist/agnostic who has absolutely no problem with other people believing in God and has even admitted that if his life hits the skids badly enough he may start believing in God, if only because he’s seen how it brings peace to many people in bad situations.
Another atheist, it’s apparent you think you’re pretty sneaky with your comments here, thinking you can come in and insult Rachel (and us dumb redneck hillbillies who just don’t know any better) and get away with it. It’s nice to know there are people out there like you who would take a very personal thing like praying for somebody else and turn it into something that would offend that person. If they just wanted to tell you to get better, they’d tell you to get better. Asking God to help with your healing and suffering is, for anybody who prays, like asking the most important person you know for a favor even if you feel you don’t deserve it. I’m sure those people you know who pray for you when you’re sick would be relieved to know just how much you shit over their concern.
Heather, I totally have a girl crush on you right now.
In any case, Rachel, those of us who are your regular readers love you and only wish the best for you and your family. Don’t apologize to those asswipes. If you feel you need to stop posting about your family because of over-sensitive pricks who can’t get over themselves and their massive God complexes (you heard me) I’ll be sad, but nobody should have to deal with this level of acrimony.
To the jerk atheists: Please see Heather’s comment above. And if you’d like to throw my religion back in my face about it (because I do believe in God) I’ll direct you to my ex-boyfriend who once told me I was going to Hell. My response to him: Fuck you.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:44 pmI don’t usually say much here, but this one makes me feel like I’ve been kicked in the gut.
I am horrified at what has been said in the comments on Rachel’s site today. It doesn’t matter ONE BIT whether it’s from Christians or Athiests. Rachel’s website is fun and informative. It’s NOT a place for flaming and name calling.
Rachel, I think you should SHUT DOWN the troublemakers. Delete their crap and ban them from your site. Block them from your email, too. This is complete bullshit and it’s the last thing you need right now. Plus, ignoring them will piss them off more than anything else. Their heads will explode in frustration and you can focus on important things.
I’d do it for you if I could. You know I would.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:46 pmI don’t think there is any defending to do. Rachel, just stand your ground and continue to ask for prayers from whomever are inclined to pray for your loved ones. Done.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:46 pmWhat is the one thing that most of them shared: a ridiculously large opinion of themselves and their own beliefs colored by the certainty that anybody who believes in God is a complete moron.
As I’ve always said, strong doctrinal atheism requires as much faith as the most fervent evangelical fundamentalism.
I’ve met exactly one person who claims to be an atheist/agnostic who has absolutely no problem with other people believing in God and has even admitted that if his life hits the skids badly enough he may start believing in God,
Wanna go for two? I’m an admitted agnostic, which to me means that I’m simply humble enough to admit I don’t know what the hell’s going on when it comes to the unknowable, and won’t take someone else’s word for it. But whatever works for you is fine with me, as long as you don’t try to stuff it down everyone else’s throat.
I feel no more compulsion to pander to egotistical atheists whose faith tells them they’re the highest being in the universe than I do to pander to the Jehovah’s Witnesses that knock on occasion.
Is there life after death? I’m sure we’ll all find out for certain soon enough, but I’m in no hurry to dispel my ignorance.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:53 pmOh, Mohamed masticating a muffaletta, Rachel! To bend a great quote all out of whack, “Millions of words for debate, but not a word of apology!”
Grace and kindness are not the forte of atheists, in my experience, some noteable examples notwithstanding.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:53 pmRachel, don’t even dare apologize to those asshats! They don’t deserve it for any reason. What you expressed to us was from your heart; and we all care more for you because of that.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:56 pmIf the atheists are so troubled and offended by your use of a common phrase that has been around since Christ was a Corporal, then they are displaying grave insecurity in the absolute correctness and infalibility of their beliefs. Screw them! If anyone should apologize, it is them (but don’t hold your breath waiting for that). Most atheists are far more evangelical than even the hardest-core Christians that I know; and become absolutely livid that you won’t see and believe in (religiously?) their world-view. They seem in the main - to be quite thin-skinned and prone to ranting and uncontrolable drooling and spittle-spraying. Ignore them. Delete them if they’re rude. It’s your blog and you pay the freight. Therefore, you make the rules. If they don’t like it, there are places for them to go where they’ll be appreciated (and even listened to).
Personally, I’ve been in more than a few “foxholes” all over the world, and haven’t found any atheists when the shit was well and truly flying through the fan. [And Pat Tillman was no atheist.]
I like hearing about your family - as do many others here - and hope that you don’t cut us off from them; but I do understand if you don’t post about them. There’s no reason for them to become collateral victims of the driveby trolls and flamers like the bunch that hit here in the past couple of days.
I’m still praying for Joe and all of the family; and I’m glad things are looking somewhat better for him.
P.S.: what’s up with “future in-laws”? Explanation, please.
Atheism, in the biggest case of irony this world has ever seen, has become what they commonly rail against- an organized religion. If I didn’t believe in God, I sure as heck wouldn’t subscribe to the b.s. they chew up and spit out. And I wouldn’t even call myself an atheist, purely because of the loose organizational attachment.
By the way, I’m hoping there wasn’t ever any confusion about the Joe that Rachel is speaking of. I am obviously not him. Of course if he has posted under the name Joe before, then things will get even more confusing. In the meanwhile, God Bless.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:59 pmBrad,
You have failed to notice that the limits of your observation is an observation of your limits.
Or, in other words, you are suffering from instrumentation error. You’re a professor of science, you should understand.
You observe atheists. Period. And which atheists do you observe? The ones who are vocal about it. The ones who have something to prove. The ones with a point.
And why are they out to convert you? Fanaticism. That’s the only reason. You’re only observing the fanatics.
Ours is not an evangelical religion. What use is a convert? Converts are not saved, except perhaps from wasting a little bit of time, or spending a little extra money on religious baubles. If I wanted to save people a little time and a little money I’d do better to convert them away from golfing, it eats more time out of the schedules of most golfers than religion does out of the schedules of most of the people who pretend to believe.
Do we win converts to the cause of rationality? Not really. I’ve met many atheists who believe in crystal therapy and homeopathy, and I’d much rather steer people away from the truly dangerous beliefs. Homeopathy can get people killed from diseases that are real, and are dangerous. I’m much more likely to spend time fighting that garbage than I am fighting religion.
Brad, I seriously have no reason to convert you. I have no reason to care, particularly, what you believe in, especially if you’re not going around and shoving it on me. Suggesting that my belief is somehow irrational, or that atheists are childish, does offend me, and I will defend them on general principle (because a perception of atheists does reflect on me. I’m a very honest person, and if people ask me what religion I am, or if I believe in God, the answer is “none of your business” or “no.” I don’t lie).
But other than that, no, I frankly do not give a darn if you want to give 10% of your income to the Church, gambling, or prostitutes. The church is probably the slightly better target for your incom