”It means nothing to me, I guess it’s for some people who died in the war.”
I was going to give the Britain-is-fucked thing a rest for a few days but readers Rick and Wayne sent me another example and this one? This one PISSES ME OFF. On a personal level. These little shitstains are talking about men like my grandfather, who died so that said shitstains could someday be born. And I now completely mean it when I say that I wish he had not bothered.
The daughter of a Second World War RAF pilot who reprimanded a teenager who she accused of vandalising a war memorial has been convicted of assault.
Julie Lake, 50, believed the 15-year-old was one of a number of youths who had damaged the remembrance garden in her village dedicated to those killed fighting for Britain.
But Mrs Lake was arrested after giving a boy, whom she believed to be the ringleader, a talking-to and a ‘cuff round the ear’.
She tackled him after she saw at least one youth riding a BMX bike through freshly-laid flower beds.
…Mrs Lake claimed she was performing a ‘moral obligation’ following months of anti-social behaviour and vandalism at the memorial. But weeks later she was arrested and yesterday was convicted of assault, criminal damage and a public order offence at North Avon Magistrates Court in Yate, near Bristol.
She was found guilty of criminal damage for angrily throwing a bicycle belonging to one of the youths into the road…
The judge rejected her claim that she was trying to perform a citizen’s arrest and ordered her to pay £400 towards costs.
He said: ‘I’m sure that having seen the damage to the flower beds, you simply lost your temper. I can understand you lost it, particularly because of your family relations in the war, and it is hardly surprising that you did. You reacted spontaneously, without thought for the consequences. You confronted the child with no plan in mind. The throwing of a bike into the road shows a complete loss of self-control, not the actions of someone executing a citizen’s arrest.’
The trial - estimated to have cost taxpayers more than £100,000 - earlier heard how Mrs Lake was surrounded by up to 25 jeering youths by the memorial at the end of last year.
She told how the gang surrounded her, pushed her and shouted: ‘You can’t touch us, we’re 15, we can do what the f*** we like.’
When the 15-year-old, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was questioned in court about the war memorial, he replied: ‘It means nothing to me, I guess it’s for some people who died in the war.’
There are no words.
You know what Britain needs? It needs for maybe a few hundred or a few thousand Americans to come over there and be strategically placed around the country, and to be allowed a special dispensation to follow the laws of the U.S., including being armed. Instead of spending tax dollars funding trials for decent people like Mrs. Lake, they could use that money to supply these Americans with room and board so that all they have to do with their time is ENFORCE SOME COMMON FUCKING DECENCY.
I want to be one of these American mercenaries of decency. I would ensconce myself at that war memorial, and I promise you that if you give me just a few days, I’ll solve your problem of worthless little punks disrespecting fallen veterans. No one will get hurt that doesn’t deserve it, but I’m sure I’d be pretty busy for a while nonetheless.
A few months of being reminded what happens when decent people are armed would hopefully leave a lasting impression, and maybe before we leave, we could re-train the dozen or so Britons who still have any balls whatsoever how to take over our shitstain-removal activities.
It just might work. I don’t know what else would, because clearly, even when upstanding folks like Mrs. Lake try to do something, they get nothing except assault convictions. Britain’s become a case study in what happens when you let liberals have their way for years on end, and it is truly disgusting. People ask me why I hate liberals/liberalism. This is why.
UPDATE: Yes, maybe she had the wrong kid on that particular day and maybe all he did was ride through some flowerbeds. He’s still a punk and he’s still the one who’s quoted in the title to this post. Everyone can debate the “law” all they want, but like I keep saying, it’s not about correcting someone else’s child, it’s about the unwavering propensity of British law enforcement to punish the adults and decent people who finally have had enough shit and finally fight back.
In other words, this comment by Eric:
Some of you seemed to be ignorant of the overall situation in the UK as regularly reported by their own press, but regularly ignored in the US, except by a few blogs.
There aren’t just a few bad apples in a huge barrel of good ones — there are lots of “juveniles”, in chronological age from their pre-teens to well into their 30s, who are out of control and know that the justice system will do little to control them. The police are generally useless in dealing with them, issuing “cautions” if they even bother to show up to the crime scene and catch someone.
However, anyone who chooses to defend him- or herself is very likely to be arrested for assault, regardless of whether the person or propery is private, public, or in his or her very own house. The Labour government has successfully stamped out of the system any notion of self-defense or dealing effectively with actual criminals — the legal focus has now shifted to making sure wage-earning citizens keep their rubbish bins sorted properly, and their recylables int the proper box, and not don’t make it too heavy, and oh by the way don’t wear a hat in the pub because the surveillance camera can’t see your face. And damn you if you use an English measurement instead of a metric one. And don’t you dare say something about “Asians” even as the muslims are marching in the street calling for death to the infidels. And do like the one UK police chief advised: leave your car keys by the front door so when the thugs break it down, they can easily find them, and maybe they won’t climb the stairs to your bedroom and beat you senseless to give up the keys.
It is much easier and more lucrative to enforce laws against honest people who make money through actual jobs. Remember the old line about asking a robber why he robs banks? “Cuz that’s where the money is!” Same with the UK’s enforcement of the law — go where the money is, not where the actual crime and violence is — no profit there!
Go check out PC Copperfield at The Policeman’s Blog (http://coppersblog.blogspot.com/) and go back thru the archives. He anonymously documented the nonsense that British policing has become, became fed up with the whole stinking mess, and emigrated to become a policeman in Canada. He still maintains the blog to provide venting for other cops who want to be good cops, but are trapped in a leftwing bureaucracy, and haven’t realized they either need to revolt or flee the country.
That’s why I am with the lady who smacked the kid. He deserved smacking, and yes if it was your kid there he deserved smacking too for desecrating a memorial to the WWII Britains. Of course the little yobs are so busy desecrating the rest of the country, I suppose it doesn’t matter any more.
And Rachel, you wrote this:
“It needs for maybe a few hundred or a few thousand Americans to come over there and be strategically placed around the country,…”
No, it is too early for that. What Britain needs is a few years under the sharia administration that is coming to the UK. Let them know what it is really like to live in society that does not honor genuine western values. Perhaps they will then have their own “Anbar Awakening” and realize what they have given up. Of course, since they will long have been disarmed, they won’t be able to do a bloody thing about it. THEN — maybe — some US troops will do some good. Altho I will be hard pressed to support bailing them out again. At least during WWII the Brits gave some evidence of being worth saving, but look how that has turned out since.
Maybe “A Clockwork Orange” was prophetic…?
What you’re seeing is a society that does not have the right to bear arms in their own protection. If the citizens actually had the right to protect themselves, the society wouldn’t be so f****d up, and those thugs would have been put in their place ages ago.
I say next time we liberate or protect a country that we insist on some sort “bill of rights” for the citizens of said country that comes from the citizens, not the politicians. Something simple, resembling ours. Not that monstrosity of a constitution that the EU has.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:38 pmI would’ve beat the shit outta that little punk, assault arrest be damned
This is happens when parents don’t raise their children properly. Like Proverbs says - “Those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children. Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.”
July 11th, 2008 at 12:38 pmI love, love, love Britain, but damn they need some American machismo. SRSLY.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:39 pmDevil’s advocate time.
The magistrate involved said:
I agree. One needs to remain in control of oneself when confronting wrongdoing. Crim-J majors, and subsequently, police officers, take several semesters-worth of classes and follow-up seminars to learn to maintain control. And many still can’t learn to do it.
I don’t want anybody attacking my 15-year-old son if he smarts off. I want to do that myself. In the privacy of my own home. If someone catches him misbehaving, they need to call the cops on his ass. Believe me, if he got smacked by this lady he would have smacked her back, and I would have encouraged him to defend himself. And then I would have switched his ass after I bailed him out of jail, made him perform community service and pay his own damned fine. We have laws, and I want him punished to the fullest extent of them. And then, as I said, he’d face me.
After all, you can’t hit your own child in public in America without being arrested for it, what makes you think it’s okay to hit someone else’s? I might restrain this little hooligan for the cops, but I am damn sure not going to smack him in the head. He might pull out a gun and shoot me for my trouble.
But then again, my son would never be in this situation in the first place. I raised him to understand and appreciate the sacrifices made on his behalf, but I also raised him that it is right and proper to defend himself when attacked, even by an adult.
And I note that Rachel has a geneology site in a banner ad as I type this — which brings up the point “why didn’t these kids know about the signicance of the memorial?” The reason — our schools are too busy teaching our children about sex, popular culture and feelings to teach them about history and its import.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pmI don’t know man.
If I trashed a war memorial at 15, and somebody smacked the shit out of me, do you know what my parents would’ve done?
They would’ve smacked the shit outta me again. Especially my old man.
So I don’t know, I guess maybe it’s different when you’ve got kids of your own, yadda yadda, but I can tell you what, my parents would NOT have had sided with me against this woman.
Edit:
July 11th, 2008 at 12:48 pmAlso, if I had fought back against the woman, and hit her? Yeah, that’d be a double-smacking. I’m telling you, with my parents, in that situation, there is no way I could’ve come out with any sort of honor or dignity intact. They were … unsympathetic when it came to getting in that kind of trouble.
14k,
You have a point, and so had the judge, BUT, if I were that judge, I’d have ’sentenced’ Mrs. Lake to community service — replanting the flower beds. With plantings and court costs paid for by the shitstains’ parents!
The shitstains? Need their backsides warmed by the tender ministrations of some civic-minded veterans!
July 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pmYep. Agreed, f!
July 11th, 2008 at 12:55 pmDon’t get me wrong, BoB, I am too … but it’s not for someone else to smack my kid in anger. Too much can go wrong in that sort of scenario, which might include my son getting killed for being stupid. Call the cops, PLEASE!
I mean really, BoB, if we all started randomly attacking strange kids in public for being stupid, don’t you think there’d be a lot more bodies laying around?
It’s not like he’s attacking a person. He’s attacking an object. He needs to be punished OBVIOUSLY, but no one needs to be physically damaged as a result (until later, grrrrr … I wish this was *my* kid).
And yes, I WILL tell my son to defend himself against ANYONE who physically attacks him, anytime, except for the police, because even if you’re right and the cops are wrong you just can’t win that battle.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:58 pm14k,
July 11th, 2008 at 1:02 pmYes, yes, but I’m still arguing for leniency for Mrs. Lake — who shouldn’t have hit the punk, shouldn’t have thrown the bike, and “convicted of assault, criminal damage and a public order offence,” should not have been punished!
“It needs for maybe a few hundred or a few thousand Americans to come over there …”
Well, no. What it needs is what it’s getting: sinking into a liberal multi-culti quicksand. Which they are doing with a passion.
Check the recent news story about a British group (we’d call it a “think-tank” here) that advised kindergarten and nursery-school teachers to be on the lookout for children who says “yuk!” to “foreign foods” (by which we know exactly what they mean), and report it - yes, report it - as a “racist incident”.
I call it “Formerly Great Britain”. It won’t be long before they adopt sharia law. Thank God that Nelson and Churchill didn’t live to see this.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pmVan Helsing does a great job posting about how fucked up the left is in Britain and elsewhere at his website, Moonbattery.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pmWe need a new Lend Lease program for the UK. I’ll donate my extra 12 ga. pump.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pmMan, I so want to get a “Mercenaries of Decency” tattoo. In an arc over a rendering of a Miss Manners book. And perhaps the words “Etiquette from Above” across the bottom.
And I’m only half kidding. Sign me up.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:11 pmThat sucks. Unless you can be within visual range of him at all times to intervene, I guess you’d better start an immediate, intensive crash education in the art of not behaving like an uncivilized juvenile delinquent, hadn’t you?
What good would calling a bobby have done in that situation? You’re thinking like an American.
One of the sorts of Americans who storms into schools and makes it impossible for teachers or administrators to maintain discipline, because they’re being unfair to your little Moompkins, the way I read you. One of the sorts who makes me sympathetic to teachers from time to time.
I know our hostess has a low tolerance for flamewars at this point, so I will end with the simple observation that nothing you have written, 14 Karat, makes me in the least sympathetic to you, or your hypothetical out-of-control little shitstain thug of a 15 year old “kid”.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:12 pmIf they were just being stupid, yeah I’d agree with you - and my parents probably would too.
But they were committing a crime. She was stopping them from committing crimes. (I’m assuming here that vandalism is still a crime in Britain. I don’t know it might not be anymore XD) But this is, I believe, the vital difference. Should she have called the cops? Sure. But it sounds like, from the story, that she wasn’t near a phone, wasn’t watching from a distance - that she saw the kids tearing through the flower garden and tackled one. She then gave them a stern talking to and cuffed one upside the head. That to me? Not assault. If she beat the crap out of one with his own bicycle - yeah. If she knocked one out - maybe. But a smack upside the head?
I’m not saying her actions should be condoned - but they should expected at the very least, and her punishment should be very light if anything at all. She shouldn’t be facing an assault conviction.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pmThe Tories are so going to win when the next election is called. And that is going to be sooner rather than later, as confidence in the wisdom of Gordon Brown (and New Labour) is at an all-time low.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pm14K - “I don’t want anybody attacking my 15-year-old son if he smarts off. I want to do that myself. In the privacy of my own home. If someone catches him misbehaving, they need to call the cops on his ass.”
The problem is that this happened in England. Good luck getting the cops to respond in less than 4 hours.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pmYou could not have misinterpreted 14 Karat’s post any more than if it had been translated into Japanese and back into English.
Good god, did you read her first comment about playing devil’s advocate?
July 11th, 2008 at 1:14 pmProblem is, the “Juvies” ARE untouchable for all practical purposes. Back in the mid 80’s I personally collared a young perp who had stolen my lawnmower and was a few blocks down brazenly mowing yards for quick money(points for initiative and enterprenurship, I guess)The cop I called said thussly: “I advise not to press charges, he’ll be out of jail before I’ve filled out the paperwork and I’ve more important things to do. Sorry, in the old days I’d have taken him around back, slapped the shit out of him, put the fear of God in him, and hauled him straight to his Mother’s. If I did that now I’d get arrested–plus probably sued.”
Brave New World indeed.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:14 pm14 Karat - I have to disagree with you this time, because the article says that not only she had been trying to get them to stop for over a year, she HAD called the cops and they didn’t do anything.
Oh, and BoB- as far as them being 15 is concerned, we could send other 15-year-olds over there, like my 15-year-old, who is 6′1″, 240lbs, and while he hasn’t had formal training, works out in the yard with a makeshift staff all the time.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:15 pmI don’t know what it is but the action of the 15 year olds just reminds me of all my interactions with british teen boys online, and what I have heard about them from others. I’ve done some online gaming so the contact happens. And teenaged boys from Britain just come off as being completely immature. And what I mean by that is even less mature than American teenagers. Its just a complete lack of common sense and anything approaching rational thought. I mean seriously what is wrong with these little snots?
July 11th, 2008 at 1:16 pm14karat said:
I mean really, BoB, if we all started randomly attacking strange kids in public for being stupid, don’t you think there’d be a lot more bodies laying around?
A trip to my local mall would look a scene from Day of the Dead.
This whole situation looks like a scene from a “Teens Gone Wild” kind of show. I can’t figure out who I feel worse for: the woman, the fact that these teens are so lacking in any sort of decency - and parents who so very much need to teach them, or England itself…
July 11th, 2008 at 1:19 pmAn excellent point. I’d be surprised at your stats on your kid there, but I actually knew a 15 year old who was 6′2″ and 220 pounds when I was younger.
Okay Rachel - new plan. We gather up all the Sons of Anak and Nephilim that we’re growing over here and send over an army of 15 year olds as the Mercenaries of Decency - what could the adults do? They’d be untouchable.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:19 pmGotta disagree, felicity. The law says one just can’t go around beating on kids, no matter how much they deserve it.
She paid a fine for her actions, and I personally would be glad to do so — remember what everyone was saying at the other “dumb teenager” post, about:
Hers was just a little more expensive.
I do, however, agree with your proposition that:
But I’d heve my “shitstain 15-year-old” right next to her, and he wouldn’t be sitting on his ass, because he wouldn’t be able to.
Oh, did I mention that I’d be standing over the top of him the whole time reading aloud from “Memoirs of the Second World War?”
tee hee evil mother i am….
July 11th, 2008 at 1:20 pmI say: No blood, no foul. If the little shitstain didn’t have to visit the doctor, it doesn’t count as a beating XD
July 11th, 2008 at 1:24 pmI did. And I can tell you that a devil’s advocate appearing on behalf of the hypothetical 15 year old shitstain in question, even one as heart-tugging and eloquent as 14 Karat, is still unlikely to get my vote for acquittal.
Did you read the linked article? Months of vandalism of a monument to the honored dead? A gang of “kids” surrounding a respectable lady? The cops showed up and arrested the respectable lady. Pah.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:26 pmHeh. He’s a freakin’ monster. Then again, he was almost 11lbs when he was born, and has consistently been in the 90th-95th percentile on height and weight since. He’s already taller than my 6′, and I kept growing until I was 20. Scares the crap outta me.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:28 pmWhere the hell did you get that from? Do you just like randomly attacking people on forums? I can’t see anywhere in 14k’s post where that was mentioned. And over the weeks that I’ve been reading her comments, I’ve never got the impression that is how she would react. I fail to see how you can extrapolate that from a post that basically boils down to, “I’d rather you sic the cops on my kid as things can unpredictably get out of control otherwise” But whatever, you couldn’t justify your little rant without some ad hominem…
And I wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire. For someone who wants to avoid a flame war, you pile a lot wood on there.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:30 pmI love this so much I want to marry it.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:34 pmI wish my son was already 15 so he could join!
There are a few Brit-tard adults I’d like him to offer a Louisville-slugger kneecap decency reminder to on behalf of his momma …
I seriously can’t really fathom how this happened to the UK! I mean, WTF do the cops over there actually DO to control REAL crime? Why weren’t those boys be punished by the cops or their parents earlier? What did the whole rest of the community do about it for the 2 YEARS PRIOR? I do think that she went too far, but it should have NEVER have gotten to that point in the 1st place, and it certainly wasn’t assault.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:35 pmTherein lies the whole problem. Society has abdicated its responsibility in developing citizens. Watch and see that it will happen here, too.
No, I don’t have a solution.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:36 pmHillerich and Bradsbury model K55. 33 inches long, stout handle, thick hard barrel, choice hickory, tight grain.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:45 pmWrap the handle in friction tape. Wrap the barrel in barbed wire.
I just had a flash back to The Untouchables, where an elevator opened to show “touchable” scrawled on the back in blood. Whoever’s in the pilot’s seat in Formerly Great Britain had better pull up hard before this occurs to less stable folk as well. If, you know, it hasn’t already.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:48 pmI teach fifteen year olds. Trust me, I understand their psychology. The very best of them, the ones that have been properly trained by their parents, are only just beginning to develop a moral conscience. The majority, especially adolescent males, live in an amoral world where the only restraint comes from fear of being caught and punished. If older males do not dominate the adolescents, you create something out of Lord of the Flies. Boys are savages until they become properly socialized. It is precisely the threat of a good ass-kicking by an older man that keeps anti-social behavior in check. The swifter and more vigorous the punishment, the more likely the lesson will stick. Indulging adolescent nihilism will lead to arrested psychological and social development. These kids will grow into physical adults with boy’s brains: whiney, spoiled, demanding, and utterly selfish. They need a good taste of the lash, in public, as does the judge.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:49 pmHere is where I would admit you had a small little point, I grant you, although I plead that my use of the word “hypothetical” makes clear I do not believe we are talking about 14 Karats actual child. 14 Karat, it would be nice of you to forgive me for personalizing it in that fashion, little though I deserve it, please.
My, we jump right away to the barfight language, don’t we? Well, they say everone’s a tough guy on the Internet.
Try to remember the outrageous context of the subject of the post, why don’t you, and perhaps grant me the smallest space to take on the argument of those appearing as devil’s advocates on behalf of 15 year old shitstain little thugs who vandalize war memorials. Asking the audience to conceive of the offender as their child invites one to wonder about the circumstances which led to the selfsame child knocking over monuments and tearing up flower beds and ganging up on respectable ladies, or am I being, at base, unfair?
July 11th, 2008 at 1:51 pmBoB — It’s not the stern talking and the cuffing that concerns me.
It’s the escalation of these types of situations that bother me.
Now if the Brit-tards operated like their down-under brothers in Australia …
July 11th, 2008 at 1:54 pmCheese Louise! I go for a walk to the post box, and . . .
Then I respectfully submit that you read her entirely wrong! Did you miss the bit about how she would have disciplined her ‘Moompkins’? 14k is not ‘that sort’ of parent. On the contrary, if I were her kid’s teacher, I would consider myself very fortunate indeed!
If you’ve been around here long enough to know that, you should have more insight into the character of 14k!
July 11th, 2008 at 1:56 pmWith the laws, courts and judges in England protecting the criminal and prosecuting the innocent, England is finished with no hope of recovery short of a bloody civil war.
It’s gone beyond completely mad.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:59 pmIs anyone else wondering why we’re seeing all these “Brittain is going down the tubes” articles on the right side of the blogosphere all of a sudden?
July 11th, 2008 at 2:01 pmBig group of volunteers, American or British, casted in the mold of LawDog. Free shotguns for all said volunteers loaded with rock salt (unlimited refills). Repeat as necessary.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pmI read her character as defending a hypothetical 15 year old juvenile delinquent who defaced public monuments as if it were her actual child. I don’t think that is her character, but I took it as read. “Devil’s advocate”, and all that.
Other commenters above have pointed out some characteristics of 15 year old adolescent males that are useful to keep in mind during this discussion. I pointed out, in the real life example of the article, that it was the upstanding citizen who ended up getting arrested, and so I can tell you that the plea to call the cops is at best of limited value in the matter being discussed. I’ve already asked 14 Karat to forgive me, and I hope she does, I do seem to have personalized it a bit. I don’t require forgiveness from anyone else.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:08 pm14k, You said to think of the bodies laying around if we went around attacking 15year olds; but stop and think about it. Those little shitstains are NEVER going to grow up, at least mentally; and one fine day, they are going to take that one last step over the line, and some nasty, unenlightened, unsympathetic old fart is going to plant a couple of 240grain hollow points in his (or her) chest or head - thereby saving society untold amounts of frustration, time wasted on “rehabilitation”, and money. And when it happens, the poor, misunderstood little shitstain’s last thought will be “I gots my rights”.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:10 pmI don’t mean to say that her actions shouldn’t be examined before the law. (Remember the discussion about how best to deal with the Phelpsians?) But, under the circumstances, in her case, the punishment was way out of line.
I agree that she has to be willing to accept consequences of actions — how else do you set an example for kids?? — but I still think the judge should have worked out a way to avoid making her pay even her court costs.
If I were a Brit, I’d try to set up a legal defense fund for people like her!
July 11th, 2008 at 2:10 pmOk, you got me there (although I remember it as Telephone Toughguy). That last bit on my part was a bit unnecessary. I do tend to pull the trigger quickly, but it appeared to me an attack on 14K using pejorative and emotive language. And it seemed a bit unfair given her posting history here.
I do understand what you are saying, and you do have a point. I disagree with how you made that point. I also think you were mischaracterizing what 14K was saying, but I suppose she can fight her own battles if she thinks it important enough.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:11 pmMy personal theory is the whirlpool effect is happening in Britain.
The closer to the drain it gets, the faster it becomes. And honestly, Britain is getting really close to the drain.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:12 pmHey, 14 Karat, I have four kids and if anyone caught them committing a crime and cuffed them on the head, that is exactly what I would expect her to do.
How stupid are we, that we expect our parents to parent and everyone else to leave them entirely alone? In my neighborhood, there are eyes on everyone’s kids. I’ve had other moms report to me that they yelled at my kids for acting improperly, and I thank them and reinforce it.
At baseball games, when things get out of hand at the playground with the younger kids I tell the kids to settle down. One kid snottily said to me: “I”m not your kid!”
“I’m not your mom, but I’m A mom,” I said. “Now settle down or I will march you over to your mom and we will have words.”
He settled right down. I don’t expect this in Britain, which has descended into savagery, but I certainly expect all adults to behave this way in America whether or not you have kids.
And if a kid is committing a crime, they deserve a cuff on the head from a little old lady.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:13 pmPhil, spoken like a gentleman.
I’ll leave now, because if I’m at a party and I begin to wonder if I’m not giving the impression of being an asshole, why, maybe I am.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:15 pmWell, you may not, but I do! I hastily responded to your earlier post without noting the more recent one.
You did misread, but if you and she have sorted it out, then I needn’t have piled on!
July 11th, 2008 at 2:20 pmI think ‘tubes’ may be the operative word — the 7th was the third anniversary of the London Tube bombing. All this stupid stuff has been ongoing, but the anniversary has perhaps called greater attention to it?
July 11th, 2008 at 2:27 pmThe behavior of the 15 year olds in only tangential to the issue. There will always be bad 15 year old boys in every society. That’s what 15 year old boys are (some of the time) and there’s no getting around it. Likewise regarding their ignorance of what happened in their country starting 70 years ago. That is so remote from their experience, that it will ever be rare for such boys to really understand it.
The news article is far from clear about the events that occurred, mish mashing background with the event in question.
It would seem that she did indeed commit an assault on a 15 year old in the absence of a threat. I’m sorry folks, but you can’t do that in this country, either. You can’t use force to protect property that is not your own in most states of the union, either, and this is especially true of public property and doubly true with minors.
So, from what was reported, it’s cut and dried that she was guilty in the specific act she was charged with.
But this is where prosecutorial discretion comes into play. I don’t think any US prosecutor would take this to court in these circumstances. The kid wasn’t hurt, he deserved much worse than he got, and the lady was frazzled. If she kept doing it in the absence of a threat, then sure, that’s a different story.
If the prosecutor is elected he or she should know that failing to prosecute the boys for vandalism and the police chief for safeguarding the property would be big issues in their next election.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:36 pmSorry Skylar, I must disagree.
This is a direct cause and effect relationship. We can’t take this attitude of “oh bother, boys will be boys..” In my eyes the boy is guilty of public defacement of a landmark and Mrs Lake was doing her duty to stop him. Throwing the bike in the road might have been a bit extreme, and she should have to pony up to pay for a new bike if it was damaged. Teach the boy early to respect the rule of law. End of story.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:52 pm14K, I’m with you. You don’t smack somebody else’s kid. Period. Holler at them. Deny them privileges if they’re your guests. Depending on the situation, MAYBE grab them by their arm to drag them to their mother or father for proper immediate discipline. But smack them? Nope. That is indeed assault.
The problem here is that the British courts and police seem to have ample time to deal with reasonable, normal, sane people who understandably lost their temper, but no time to deal with ungovernable youth who have been reared wrong perhaps from the day they were born.
Barney Fife was right. When it comes to young delinquents, you’ve got to “nip it in the bud.” The time to intervene, either by parents or society in general, is at the earliest signs of narcissism and a belief in their untouchability. By the time they’re 15, they’re so far down the wrong path (and have grown so physically large) that only massive amounts of severe course correction are likely to make a difference.
Interesting, though, to watch the conservatives here supporting the right of unrelated adults to physically assault a minor as punishment for vandalism. They’re (likely unintentionally) echoing Hillary Clinton: It Takes a Village to Raise a Child.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:56 pmAlthough I have never read a page of that book, much less likely have ever even seen its cover, I kind of doubt the idea to smack some unruly vandal upside the head even if he’s not your kid, is in Hillary’s book.
And I believe the title is merely It Takes a Village. The full phrase existed before she decided to use it for her book.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:13 pmDo we get to pistol whip the ever loving shit out of the British police in the process?
July 11th, 2008 at 3:14 pmYou say that now, but when someone has to pay the hospital bill for your injured child, I’m not sure I would be able to keep myself from suing. And I am most definitely not litigous. And God forbid if this “little old lady” was packing or forgot her happy pill that day.
Defacing a public monument is a crime. So is smacking my kid. I don’t advocate doing either. And I am not defending the child, and you damn well know that. You were being an asshole, and that was in your character, at the time. You are forgiven for rude behavior emanating from an impassioned argument, Mr. James.
Yes, I read the article.
EDIT: Just in this century:
My great uncle gave his life in WWII.
My father would have been better off if he had died in Vietnam.
My brother-in-law is in Iraq.
They believe(d) in democracy.
Our law says you can’t smack a 15-year-old.
If you don’t like the law, change the law, or leave the country.
Until that time, expect to be punished for smacking 15-year-olds.
Tee, hee. I’z a bad conservative : )
July 11th, 2008 at 3:15 pmI’m a libertarian, and I wholeheartedly agree with what the woman did. I have relatives who fought in every war the U.S. has been in. If I were in her position, the punk’s face would be like a Dali painting by the time I was done with him.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:18 pmI have ancestors who fought in the Revolution.
I have ancestors who fought in the War of 1812.
I have ancestors who fought for both sides in the Civil War.
I have relatives who fought in WWII, Korea and Vietnam.
All of them would say that you’re an ass for goosesteppingly obeying an ass of a law whose sole function in this instance is to protect vandals and facilitate dischord in the community.
Do what’s right and good for your neighbors, not just whatever the law says.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:23 pm14 karat said:
Ditto!
July 11th, 2008 at 3:24 pmSo you advocate anarchy? WTF are you suggesting that I do? I SAID prosecute my kid to the fullest extent of the law. I also said keep your fucking hands off my child, and I will beat his ass myself.
I am most certainly not an ass. Who are you to call me such names? I have not called you any names for suggesting it is okay to implement martial law because someone defaced a monument!
And where the hell do you live that it’s “right and good for your neighbors” to smack up up on someone else’s 15-year-old in public for making a mess? Compton? Yeah, go do that, sir, and enjoy your death-by-glock.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:27 pmI volunteer my 15 year old sister for the Mercenaries of Decency. She’s built, plays softball and swings a mean bat, and she’s seen our brother do two tours in Iraq and would willingly beat the smack out of someone her own age for disrespecting soldiers. And our brother could stand in the background, in uniform and looking menacing, and none of these punks would dare to lay a hand on her.
I think she’d love a trip to England!
July 11th, 2008 at 3:29 pmWhy spend anything on room and board? These guys are Brits! Let’s quarter our soldiers in their houses, without the consent of their owners in time of (relative) peace, in a manner not prescribed by law. It’s about time we got them back for that one.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:31 pmActually, I’ve been wondering why they have only been seen on the right. But not wondering very much.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:35 pmPhil, you are a gentlemen and a scholar. I know you now, and you have my permission to beat the hell out of my 15-year-old if he enters your yard and pisses in your cornflakes.
Thanks so much.
Your logic and reason are much appreciated. A cool and level head needs to prevail, particularly where crimes are concerned.
Mrs. Lake admits she lost her temper. You just can’t do that when dealing with children. That is the most common excuse for abuse and domestic violence and just plain old crimes of passion.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:42 pmAside from the “smack my kid and I’ll get you, bub” argument (which for most Rachel fans is moot because we’re of the “if my kid needed a smack that bad, good on ya”) — we have got to find that old woman’s info and get her a paypal account.
Because I’d like to toss some cash her way to defray expenses. And to put some pretty little caltrops in the garden.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:48 pmHooray for you. Now pay your fine, do your sentence, enjoy your lawsuit and move on to the next punk, cuz’ you’re making such a statement and societal difference beating up other people’s kids for vandalism. If it really means that much to you to engage in this practice, you won’t mind paying the societal price for doing so.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:51 pmBaxtrice, you misunderstood me. I meant that the behavior of these boys, by itself, is not something we should condemn a nation for. The boys should certainly be condemned. But this happens in all nations from time to time. It’s the nation’s reaction to their behavior that is important, not the existence of the behavior itself that is an indicator of a nation’s character.
Personally, I don’t think throwing a bike in the road is extreme at all. I think hitting a child is a bit much — in the absence of a threat. In either case, I would hope that discretion would stop any prosecution in this case, and if not, a much more lenient sentence should be handed out.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:52 pmAll right, 14K, I have to ask, what SHOULD be done in the face of law enforcement refusing to do anything about the issue?
By the way, please realize that, “Grab them by the arm and take them to their parents”, as PatHMV said, wasn’t going to happen here. Even if she had any idea who the parents were (I’m sure the kid would have refused to tell her), before she got any reasonable distance, she would have been surrounded again, and have no chance to continue. On top of that, based on the other stories we’ve seen lately, she would have STILL been prosecuted, just for holding the little creep by the arm.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:57 pmGettin kinda warm in here. (taking a deep breath)
Excellent Friday discussion.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:58 pmI think Mrs. Lake was remarkably restrained in just throwing the bike, considering her astounding LACK of options to deal otherwise.
The Mercenaries of Decency™ might just be the best idea.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:10 pmMight have to get the tattoo myself.
What is with the freakin’ cops in Britain, though? Can’t arrest the wild kids destroying the town, but they’ll still arrest the decent lady who lost control for a bit but didn’t hurt anything but a bicycle owned by a 2-bit punk? They ought to have told the punk if he really wanted to press charges against the lady for assault, they’d have no choice but to investigate the entire incident and file charges on the vandalism and threats of violence, too.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:18 pmI can’t say. I’m not from Britian.
I also can’t say the measures that were taken to curb the vandalism were proactively adequate or not, since the article doesn’t specify. One or two calls, or an outright urban letter-writing and protest assault on the local cop shop? Doesn’t really matter, violence just isn’t justified.
My old neighborhood was right next to a school and the local drug-sales park (this was before I moved to the country, and now my nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away). We had an active neighborhood watch to keep things protected, and teens earned community service hours toward school-related projects for being involved. When I (or neighbors) called the cops, we damn well kept calling until we got a response or else we camped out at city hall.
Again, I’m rural. I know mostly everyone in a 50 mile radius, and my kids know they’d GET a beatdown from some adult they know for misbehaving — because I have given all my adult friends permission to spank them if needed. Anyone they didn’t know would not touch them, but would be on the phone with me before the dust settled on their bullshittery.
It’s never been needed. People tell me my kids are the most polite they’ve ever met. (I don’t get to see that — they are always ARGUING when I’m around — swear to god they save it for me.)
IN CONCLUSION:
Do I want to take a baseball bat to these fuckers? YES.
Can I do so without being arrested? NO.
Would I confront them verbally? YES.
Would I lay my hands on them (strangers)? NO.
Would I lay my hands on them (children of friends)? YES.
Do I want a stranger laying hands on my kids? FUCK NO NOT FOR ANY REASON!!!
Would I pay the fine if I couldn’t restrain myself? CHEERFULLY.
Why then do I restrain myself? PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
And why is that? MORALS, VALUES, DECENCY, COMMON SENSE, LOVE OF COUNTRY, AND ORDER.
Do I want to see that returned to society? FUCK YEAH!
Do I think violence is the way to get there? FUCK NO!
Do I have the home number of the county sheriff, commissioners and district court judge on speed-dial? YES.
Why, you ask? I took the time to become politically active, campaigning for these people and getting to know my community. Quid pro quo.
There it is, people.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:23 pmFirst of all, I didn’t call you a name. You brought out your family members in the military as some sort of weak trump card about democracy. I have a number of relatives who fought to liberate this country from the British Empire, and that tradition has gone through to the conflict in Iraq. Not a single one of them, that I know, would fault this woman for her actions.
Anarchy? You want to talk anarchy? Look at what the police did. That’s anarchy. You have a community straight out of Clockwork Orange, and all the mealy mouthed cunts in the local police force can do is muster up the gumption to bust a pensioner. That’s why people like me are more likely to get the idea to beat the tar out of the punk, so badly that he pavlovianly stands at attention whenever he comes within eye sight of a war memorial, rather than calmly call the police.
In case you haven’t noticed, the police in Britain frequently ignore people until they’ve reached their wits’ ends and take matter into their own hands. Then they bust them for doing that. THAT is your breeding ground for anarchy, not a civic minded citizen slapping around a yob when she knows that the police aren’t going to give a rodent’s posterior about anything he does to a war memorial.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:30 pmWhat else was Mrs. Lake to have done? Well, how about recruit some neighbors to maintain a vigil to protect the monument? How about exercise some political pressure to embarrass the police into taking some action. Vocally demand a change in the law, if the law is the problem, try to change the law. Take pictures of the children, find the parents, and shame the parents into taking action.
Resorting to personal violence in this situation is NOT the first step in regaining civilization, it is a renunciation of the tools of civilization and a sinking to the level of those who are in the process of trying to destroy civilization. These youth will not gain more respect for the law as a result of her flouting the law. To the contrary, as a result of this, those little shits probably feel even MORE untouchable as a result of her actions than they did before.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:30 pmI’m a southerner. In most parts of the South, if a teen punk got his ass tore up for damaging or destroying a war memorial, the police would be more inclined to hand a nightstick to the person doing the beating than to take them to the station.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:33 pmThe bad neighborhoods in the U.S. which have been saved are NOT those in which the good citizens declare open season on the drug dealers and thugs and start shooting them. No, they organize themselves and take non-violent actions (resorting to violence for self-defense, of course) to bring change. I know one neighborhood that got tired of the white middle class folks coming to the “hood” to buy drugs, so they started taking pictures of the white folks, got their license plate numbers, and sent letters to their houses asking them not to come to the neighborhood any more. One neighborhood got tired of the prostitutes in their midst, so they started taking photos of the johns and posting them in public places. Dried up the customers real fast, and got the police to get much more involved.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:35 pmMikeT… I’m from the South, too. And in those areas you describe, the police tend to let the rich and powerful do as they please and enforce the laws only on the poor, black, or otherwise politically powerless. “Rough justice” has its occasional uses, but on the whole, I’d much rather the cops just did their job like they’re supposed to. If the cops had bothered doing anything about the vandalism and threatening behavior beforehand, then Mrs. Lake would never have reached the point she did.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:38 pmOuch! Fun to watch the effect on the little turds’ tires, but probably prosecutable :).
Haha! Do we have the same kids? Your services are badly needed on the next thread, don’cha know!
Thank you!
July 11th, 2008 at 4:41 pmIt’s funny - I volunteer with a teenage boy, and my brother is 15 year younger than I, so I’ve had some experience with this age group. My brother’s friends and my “volunteeree” are not always what you would consider to be the promise of a bright future. I can see some of them defacing a monument like that. And when my brother’s friends were in my mom’s home and some of them were less than respectful, I found that the best way to handle them was to verbally humiliate them. In other words, act like a common animal and expect me to treat you like one. Act like a decent human being and find out how absolutely fabulous I can be.
I can’t say that I know the answer to Mrs. Lake’s problem - I can say that I would have no issue locating parents, contacting newspapers, writing editorial letters, writing schools, etc.
It’s a valuable lesson to learn to realize you can hit someone without ever laying a hand on them.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:41 pmI agree that in a society like the US this makes sense. However, you and 14 Karat are simply not looking close enough at how rotten the British state has become. It is actively siding with its criminal class against law-abiding citizens.
Let’s bold that last point:
The reason that none of the “civil” means of reducing crime are working is that the British government flouts the pleas for help from its law-abiding citizens. Very few governments in the United States are as wanton in that regard as the British municipal governments. They culturally have to at least put up a good show of caring about the safety and well-being of their residents.
You said that the yobs feel more empowered because of her violence? You’re wrong. They’re empowered by the fact that the police never came when these thugs terrorized and terrorized the community, and then only came to save the day for the yobs when a pensioner finally had enough and slapped around a yob who was desecrating a very important public memorial.
One of the reasons why I would never have to realistically think about beating someone in the U.S. for desecrating a war memorial like that is that it would never be tolerated. Not by the police, not by the prosecutor, not by the eye-witnesses. First call to the police, a cop would be out there throwing the punk to the ground and hand-cuffing him.
We saw how well that worked in this story.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:43 pmReactions like this are precisely why Britain is falling apart. I don’t know what the answer is either, per se, but I recognize that none of the usual civil responses seem to work in Britain anymore. Stories like this one, where the police swoop in to save the criminals are all too common from Britain now.
The fact is that the yobs and their parents could care less what you write or say about them. The police will probably find an excuse to retaliate for making them look bad.
I think the only thing that would, were it still possible, be able to save Britain is a revolution.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pmRachel, I’d be happy to let you billet at my house.
Upside: I love dogs so you could bring Sunny and Maggie along, and I know a really cheap way of calling people in the US.
Downside: You’d probably waste half of your ammo on shooting at my socks. They’re so bad, they’ve achieved a kind of malevolent sentience.
Seriously, I once considered joining the police force, but there’s absolutely no way that I’d consider it now, with a lot of them more concerned with meeting targets and ticking boxes than actual, you know…policing.
I might still do it as a Special Constable for a while before I move to the US - it’s voluntary, you don’t get paid, and you only have to do it for a minimum of 4 hours a week. So if I make a mountain of paperwork by arresting genuine thugs rather than easy targets like generally law-abiding citizens who’ve been pushed to their limits, then so what?
What are they going to do? Fire me?
July 11th, 2008 at 4:50 pmNo, I most certainly did NOT do that, and my family has sacrificed more than you deserve to know for this country. That statment is beyond insulting, and you absolutely know that.
I said this:
You said this:
Hedge your bets and “you” say that “they” think I’m an ass. No, they don’t. They might not agree with the law, but they damn sure were fighting for the political entity and the couuntry that created that law.
Screw you. You climbed my shit without even having the first clue what I’m about. I most certainly didn’t do that to you. I did not personalize this argument until you “cleverly” called me an ass.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:59 pmWhy don’t you crawl back into the hole from whence you originate.
The following is a true story. We were one minute into first period on the first day of school. I was taking the roll and only as far as last names beginning with B.
Me: “Bourne.”
Kid: “Present.”
Me: “Josh, sit up straight, please.
Kid: “No.”
Me: “I beg your pardon? Sit up straight when I tell you.”
Kid: “I don’t wanna.”
At which point I lashed out with a booted snapkick to the back of his thigh.
Kid: “Owwwwwwwww!”
Me: “The rest of you sit up straight.” (Instant compliance)
Kid from the back row: “Whoah! Paules is taking no prisoners this year.”
You will not find my technique in any teaching manual. And, no, I wasn’t worried about getting sued because I knew the kid’s father. Here’s the point: When dealing with adolescent males, the reaction to insubordination must be swift. They need to be disabused of the idea that they are somehow out of reach. By taking decisive action the first time I was challenged, I put that entire class on notice. I did not write a discipline referal all year.
What I did is not child abuse; it’s good psychology. I gave him two chances to comply and spoke to him politely. Then I gave him a lesson in discipline that he understood. The issue is compliance. The very worst thing a teacher can do is negotiate, bribe, or cajole. “You know if I can’t get your cooperation, we’re going to have to put you on a behavioural contract.” Noooo! Such techniques only give a kid more chances to break the rules. Because all he’s thinking is “how much more can I get away with?” I reinterate my earlier point; adolescent males are savages. If you want to be successful in the classroom, or anywhere else for that matter, keep it in mind. Act accordingly.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:01 pmIf I’d have pulled a stunt like that as a kid, the first thing my parents would have had to do is take me to the oral surgeon to repair the damage done by my friends in the stomping it would have earned me.
The second thing done would be to take me down to civil court to pick a new name, because I’d sure as hell not be a member of the family anymore.
My folks put up with a shit load of crap from me as a kid. But there were lines I knew not to cross.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:03 pmI just have to say:
The fact that the “victims” in this case were “children” never even entered into my feelings about it. I have a really hard time seeing 15-year-old criminal boys as “children.”
So my wish to smack them around has absolutely NOTHING to do with trying to raise somebody else’s kids. In my mind, it is 100% about preventing anybody - 15 years old or not - from abusing a war memorial.
Also I think it’s important to note the parts of the article that say many, many people have been complaining about these “children” for many, many years, and nothing has been done about it.
Also the part where the woman was surrounded by a group of them and taunted. I’m sure she felt threatened in that situation. She was not acting with no provocation.
I just don’t see this at all the way some of you do; it’s nothing at all about correcting “someone else’s child.” It’s about preventing a crime, with force if necessary. She didn’t go to the kid’s house and punch him and trash his bike; she did it at the very site of HIS crime. Do you see where I’m coming from with this?
14k, I fully understand your devil’s advocate position and I love you to complete shreds, but I just want you to know that the fact that these little punks are someone’s children never entered into my mind.
And even if it did, my general theory about this kind of thing is that if a parent has so utterly failed to teach their child the most basic decency and respect for others, then that parent has forfeited his or her right to be indignant if someone else punches that kid in the nuts.
I know in my soul that no one will ever feel a justified need to punch any of your kids in the nuts, because you are raising your kids right. Other parents, not so much. And I really do believe that those particular parents can shove it right up their ass if they want to be mad that someone out in the world decides not to put up with the shit that their stinky kids are dishing out.
And one last thing, the rage I have about this whole issue has very little to do with how British people are raising their children. It is about the police and court systems over there so blatantly and wantonly pandering to the idea that no one has a right to defend themselves or, in this case, sacred property. It’s about how the cops do NOTHING about the original perpetrators of these conflicts and over and over again, only go after the pensioners who have finally had enough.
It makes me sick.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:08 pmPaules… I’ve got no problem with your approach, but it’s a very different thing than what Mrs. Lakes did. You were in a position of authority over the children, you were in a controlled environment, and you were fully in control of your temper, inflicting a physical sensation on the kid strictly in order to reinforce a lesson. None of that was the case in the situation under discussion.
MikeT. You’re absolutely right about the problem with British society as a whole. Which is PRECISELY why your course of action (vigilantism) is exactly the wrong approach. The nasty little shits of teenagers doing as they please is a symptom. By not undertaking the actions I describe, Mrs. Lake is letting those most responsible for the problem (the misguided cops, the idiot politicians, etc.) off the hook. Even if she weren’t arrested for assaulting the kid, would that actually have deterred the gang of kids growing up in an environment like exists in England in those areas today? Of course not. What needs to change is the rest of the society and culture. Fix that, and the kids will come along quickly. By targeting the kids alone, nothing will be done about the larger problem.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:09 pmSkylar,
I’m not going to condemn Great Britain for a gang of idiotic 15 year olds, I think the assault charge might be a bit “fancied” especially since the article says Mrs Lake tackled the boy and “scruffed” him. While I’m not sure what that means in British slang, it’s probably just a slap or a tug on the ear, I seriously doubt whatever she did was anything damaging to a 15 year old boy who “don’t give a f*ck”. The details are sketchy on what exactly a “scruff” is. I don’t condone violence, and I don’t think she intended to do violence, she lost her temper and smacked him the way most parents would smack their children on the bottom or up side the head. (That’s how my parents corrected my sister and I. It wasn’t abuse or violence or assault.) I understand 14 Karat’s devil’s advocate point but I also grew up in a small town where if my neighbor caught me misbehaving, I would catch hell from her AND my parents. Besides, who knows if the 15 year old is lying through his teeth? (I don’t trust anyone under 25)
It was best left up to the magistrate, but arrest? Nah, fine, community service, or fixing a bike. Not arrest.
(oh please don’t think I am trying to be mean or start a flame war.)
July 11th, 2008 at 5:23 pmRachel… take a look at the article again. The surrounding her and being threatening appears to me to have occurred at a different time than when she assaulted the kid. That taunting (and I agree, very threatening) scenario happened “last year,” according to the section you quoted. It’s not entirely clear, but the impression I got was very much that the 25-person threatening session was an entirely different incident (and my bet is that it took place after the incident for which she was convicted, as part of retaliation, making it all the more shameful that the police have done nothing to the little shits). So it wasn’t self-defense.
Secondly, here’s the description given of the incident itself: “She tackled him after she saw at least one youth riding a BMX bike through freshly-laid flower beds.”
Note that it does not say she tackled him after she saw HIM riding the bike through the flower beds. It also says she “believed” the boy to be the ring-leader. Nowhere does it say that she had just observed him vandalizing the flowers, nor does it even clearly say that he was actually with the kids she did see in the act of vandalism.
Now I grant you that the article is sadly lacking in details of what she did. It uses the word “tackled,” but I rather doubt the woman pictured actually did a dive-tackle of a 15 year old on a bike (by the way, what kind of self-respecting 15-year-old would admit that he couldn’t get away from an “old lady” like that?). The next line says that he hollered “that’s assault” when she grabbed him by the collar. If all she did was grab him by the collar, then I would agree that that doesn’t constitute battery under these circumstances.
14K, what say you? If all she did was grab the kid by the collar, maybe as he was riding by on the bike, is that ok with you? I’m leaning yes, along the lines of my “grabbing by the arm to take home to mama” scenario I described earlier. Personally, I’ve got no problem with what she did to the bike. If it turns out she got the wrong kid, I’m sure she would have happily paid for a new bike. I draw a big line between violence to a person and just property damage.
So on the one hand, if she really did violence to the kid, based on the article’s apparent conclusion that she had no reason to be certain that this kid had just committed any vandalism, then I stand by my opinion that she’s in the wrong on that. But on the other hand, if all she did was grab the guy by the collar (she was acquited of punching a kid in the stomach) and destroy his bike, then I would switch my vote to not guilty.
But even if she was in the right, she should have been finding some way much earlier to get the community involved to stop this before it got out of hand… because as Rachel points out, the real problem IS the idiotic attitude of the cops and courts, and unleashing wrath on one stupid kid ain’t gonna fix THAT problem.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:24 pmThat’s all well and good, until you reach the point where the police are flat out not doing their job with these punks. What is she supposed to do, “hold the police responsible” by letting her and her community by systematically victimized?
I know you mean well, but this is the simple, hard truth. Her act of violence isn’t the sort of thing that’s damaging Britain. The unwillingness of the British government to enforce the law consistently, and its bleeding heart love of the criminal class is the issue.
You seem to have an unending confidence in the use of the power of persuasion to get things done there. I don’t agree with that. I think things have deteriorated to the point where violence may be necessary to save what’s left of the civilization there from both the criminals and their friends in the government.
It doesn’t do anyone good to pretend that if they just write enough letters, make enough phone calls and vote hard enough that this will change. Britain’s government needs an enema, or worse, and I doubt that that will come about peacefully.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:42 pmI think it should goes further than prosecutorial discretion. I feel the situation calls for salutary neglect. The woman shouldn’t be prosecuted at all. This reinforces the belief already held that idiotic teenagers can act with impunity and efforts to restrain than will be punished. The opposite needs to be projected. An example should be made of huligens like these to discourage their rampant assault on civilized society. Britian should get back in touch with an old practice they once pioneered… CANNING!
And for those who think I’m being a fascist for suggesting bending the rules a little, tell that to Thomas Jefferson:
July 11th, 2008 at 5:45 pmMikeT…. how has violence in this instance helped anything? SHE was arrested. The kids weren’t. Are they more or less likely to be arrogant and believe themselves to be untouchable? Are they more or less likely in the future to taunt somebody along the lines of “we’re 15, you can’t fucking touch us”? I suspect that their belief in the