“The worry is that this will have an implication for abortion issues in Canada”
Again via Hot Air, a Canadian doctor has “concerns” about Trig Palin not being aborted.
Dr. Andre Lalonde, executive vice president of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in Ottawa, worries that Palin’s now renowned decision may cause abortions in Canada to decline as other women there and elsewhere opt to follow suit.
He says not every woman is prepared to deal with the consequences of Down babies, who have developmental delays, some physical difficulties and often a shortened lifespan.
Lalonde says his primary concern is that women have the choice of abortion and that greater public awareness of women making choices like Palin to complete a pregnancy and give birth to their genetically-abnormal baby could be detrimental and confusing to the women and their families.
“The worry is that this will have an implication for abortion issues in Canada,” Lalonde tells the Globe and Mail.
Just, WOW.
You know, I was just thinking, not every woman is prepared to deal with the consequences of BABIES IN GENERAL, some of whom have developmental delays and other problems. Abort! Abort! Abort!
Good lord.
WTFFF!?!?!?
I’m so pissed right now words escape me … that’s rare.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:11 amThis patronizing putz Lalonde must think that women are idiots.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:17 amThey’re letting the secret out: They don’t want abortions to be “safe, legal and rare.” They want to use abortion to eliminate undesirables.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:17 amEugenics at its finest. Don’t think this attitude stopped with the defeat of Nazi Germany.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:17 amSorry to say, but this is pretty standard thinking. 90% of Down’s syndrome babies are aborted, and the literature pretty much assumes that the goal of genetic testing is to find the anomaly soon enough to abort. I finished med school, residency and was about four years into practice before encountering anyone who thought abortion wasn’t the answer to every serious fetal diagnosis. Then I heard a lecture by a mother who decided to carry a baby with a fatal heart defect to term. That’s who convinced me that such actions were rational options- not an ethicist, neonatologist, philospher or priest. A mom.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:18 amAnd here we sit, naive in our belief that our neighbor to the north is just a country filled with non-threatening “eh” men — Bob and Doug McKenzies, if you will.
But it appears socialism is alive and well … and tipping ever more precariously toward the totalitarian.
Not a secret, Trish, if you’re Nazi fucking Germany!
September 11th, 2008 at 10:18 amI’d like these “experts” to show me 1 person on this earth who doesn’t have some sort of “genetic abnormality.” I’m genetically abnormal as I am predestined to have breast cancer…should we do an after-the-fact abortion? My sister was born with her feet turned so far inward the doctors didn’t think she would ever walk.
That doctor in the article probably was a called a genetic defect while in high school. I believe ‘defectus nerdicus’ is the proper medical term. (C’mon, you know this guy was the mouth-breather who probably didn’t bath very often and sat behind you in Social Studies.)
My mother always said that way back when she was having babies it was easier because no one knew if there were problems in utero. Sometimes babies were born “not so perfect”, but they were still a baby…someone to be loved and cherished.
I don’t know if I’m more offended by the dribble coming out of this doctor’s mouth or by the fact that, yet again, a Canadian is weighing in on what is happening on OUR political stage. Yeesh.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:19 amSounds like …. Hey this woman is gonna hurt my (sick) method of making money at my baby killing factory.
We are just beginning to hear the scream of the demons, and I say that this raises it to a Global level, shall i say that it raises it to the Heavens themselves?.
The Silent Scream, is silent no longer.
GO SARAHCUDA … for it is the quiet voice of a mother and her child that transcends and thunders over the roar of Herod and his baby killers. Trig is the Math the left is baffled by, simply where 1+1=3 and 24+1 = death of a liberal Messiah. And to think that so great a man is brought down by an infant of special needs. And lest we forget, his little niece or nephew, name yet unknown, who has not yet breathed air, speaks with simple eloquence that Zero cannot say with all his Hot Air. “My Mommy and Grandmother Loves Me”
September 11th, 2008 at 10:21 amBut but but, it’s NOT pro-abortion, it’s pro-CHOICE! Right? Right? I mean, if a woman wants to keep a burden-baby, that’s her choice, right?
Well, hmmmm, I wonder. After all, that baby WILL burden others in society, so it is unfair that Palin and others of her ilk make THAT choice. So, THAT choice makes ME a sort of daddy of the burden-baby. Hey, screw that. She should have been ordered to abort. For the common good!
That’s the ticket! Burden-babies should be done away, uh, I mean, um, humanely allowed to pass on to another sphere of existence. For the good of all, them and us.
The logic is inescapable. It is a scientific inevitability! And a womyn’s issue!
September 11th, 2008 at 10:23 amI was born with a profound hearing loss, and I’m damned happy my mom didn’t abort me. If anybody ever told me that they feel sorry for me, I just smile and wish I could reeducate them thoroughly.
I work at a medical college, and unfortunately, I encountered a lot of doctors like doctor mentioned above. Most of them are pompous dickheads. An administrator once called them kindergartners with advanced degrees. You sure you want kindergartners to make life changing decisions for us?
September 11th, 2008 at 10:26 amThose statistics are like a knife to my heart.
The earliest an alpha-fetoprotein test can be done is 15-20 weeks (if memory serves.) I had already felt my daughter move about, had heard her heart beat, AND saw a close up of her face at 20 weeks. How could that be “soon enough” to abort?
All of this info on top of the non-stop 9/11 ceremonies…I need a drink.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:30 amWell Duh!! Thank God for that!!! What happens when real women make real choices?? It exposes the real problem and blows these phonies right out of the water…
September 11th, 2008 at 10:32 amIt’s true about those assumptions. When I was pregnant, my OB was pushing me to have amniocentesis done. “Of course, there are SOME people who wouldn’t have an abortion under any circumstances,” he said with a smile and a wink, clearly implying, “but you’re smarter than that.”
September 11th, 2008 at 10:39 amI quickly informed him that I was one of those people. Guess what? No amnio. How about that?
Obviously, obstetricians should be be allowed to decide which women are actually prepared to be mothers and if so, of which sorts of babies. Then they can force unprepared mothers to abort. What a simple method to make sure that all mothers do a good job of parenting their babies! Why didn’t we think of this long ago?
September 11th, 2008 at 10:41 amTrish- you are right about that eliminating undesirables. Even worse than Down’s syndrome testing is testing for cystic fibrosis. Here’s a disease that isn’t even fatal, that people can live very productive lives with for decades. And yet, the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology wants it to be offered to EVERY pregnant woman. Why? It’s not treatable in utero. The only reason is so that the fetus can be aborted.
Needless to say, the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation doesn’t actually come right out and say that on their website. Advocating abortion is not a really great way to fight for treatments and cures for CF- which, incidentally, is getting closer by the day, with gene splicing and all. The unspoken fear of many advocacy groups is that the push for prenatal testing will decrease funding and interest for people suffering from diseases NOW- and lead to decreased tolerance for those with disabilities in the long run.
Basically, society is telling pregnant women that it is their duty to abort defective fetuses. Here’s an article that outlines the problem very well:The Abortion Debate No One Wants to Have
My Awesome Mixed tape #6-
September 11th, 2008 at 10:43 amOh no, you should see the push to diagnose Down’s Syndrome earlier and earlier- the latest thing is by ultrasound in the first trimester. Unless one is over 35, then it’s chorionic villus sampling- again, all in the first trimester.
So, that’s why no one has ever been able to find Josef Mengele. He changed his name to Andre Lalonde and moved to Canada.
Somewhere Reich Leader Bouhler and Karl Brandt (directors of Aktion 4) are smiling.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:45 amTrish-
About the amnio- there are many, many women just like you. But no one ever bothers to explain what genetic testing is all about. Women want testing to “Make sure everything is all right.”
The kicker is, of course, what if it’s NOT all right?
Taking another five or ten minutes to explain what kind of Pandora’s box that little blood test or amnio can open up makes a huge difference.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:52 amMy last comment on this subject as I need to get back to my slave labor…I mean work.
I, like Rachel, am a medical transcriptionist and while working in an ER in one of the most crime-ridden areas of Southern California I learned a few things:
First, gunshot is 1 word, not 2.
Second, when people throw themselves off of tall buildings the result is often that their muscles become detached from their skin, and as they are given oxygen their bodies blow up like balloons.
And, last but not least, women can get pregnant 18-20 times by the time they are only 25 years old and yet, somehow, only have 5 children to show for their hard work. This particular “mother” that I speak of was a crack-addicted prostitute who apparently felt it was less trouble to simply abort rather than have her tubes tied.
Those same doctors who believe a woman should have a choice to abort their child are usually the the same ones who wouldn’t dare infringe on a patient’s rights by doing a surgical sterilization without permission.
That particular day, when I had to type “Gravida 18, Para 5″, was the last day I proclaimed myself to be “pro-choice.”
Sorry, I’m tired and a little bit sad because it is 9/11. Kind of like trying to type when you’re drunk, but not as much fun.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:52 amWow. I mean, just, WOW.
I see, so as a pro-choice person I shouldn’t be allowed to make those choices? Even I can see that as a eugenics issue at its core.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:59 amI think it’s really interesting how they never mention the emotional or physical consequences on the would-be mother. Thank God, I’ll never know first hand, but I understand that it’s a horribly traumatic event.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:01 amNow that I have sufficiently calmed myself:
Some women, including me, choose amnio testing not to apply selective eugenic tactics, but to be better educated on the child’s condition and more fully prepared to assist that child to the best of our ability once it is born.
I had problems with two of my pregnancies (polyhydramnios, which can manifest itself as a result of a wide variety of fetus-originated conditions) and thus had tests in the first trimester of both. One of them self-terminated (the doctor called it spontaneous abortion) at almost 20 weeks as the brain of the fetus had not fully developed and it would not survive outside the womb.
We named him Matthew Robert, and buried his tiny little much-wanted, and well-loved, self during a quiet family service in 1989.
The other was born two weeks late in 1997 during the hottest September on record. She had a slight cleft lip — barely noticable, save for what is now a tiny scar.
We call her Becs.
Both of those tests came up with anomolies, and that didn’t matter. I wanted them both, no matter what, and knew exactly what I was facing because of the amniocentesis. For that, I was immensely grateful.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:05 amActually, he sounds like one of those all-too-common doctors who thinks everyone (but him) is an idiot. He cannot hear himself being a condescending twit. Dear God, what did we do with our disabled children before Doctor Lelonde?
I know (most) doctors are smart and know a lot of (medical) stuff, but they don’t know everything. (Medical education is so difficult and intensive, very many know very little about anything other than medicine.) They often come to utterly moronic conclusions when they venture outside the field of medicine. Exhibit A: The “public health” literature on the health risks of firearms.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:13 amYeah, like bitter, gun-clinging hillbilly breeders.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:14 amGod save us from “experts”.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:15 am14 karat-
That’s a wise choice you made. Me, I’m not that brave, plus I didn’t want the risk of the amnio, so I skipped it.
Women just need to know what they’re getting in to, and they can decide what’s best for them.
For instance, there are actually waiting lists of people who would like to adopt Down’s Syndrome kids. Just another one of those facts no one ever hears about.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:16 amI couldn’t agree with you more.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:18 amWell, the biggest, richest, most powerful nation on the planet lives in a glass house on top of the tallest hill. It’s reasonable to expect others to notice what’s going on. It’s human for them to have opinions.
I just try to remember to (1) rarely pay attention and (2) seldom take it seriously.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:20 amI humbly nominate Cromagnum for the Chuck Norris Action Jeans Unique Hidden Gusset Award for Excellence in Commenting.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:23 amTrish: Did you find another OB after that?
September 11th, 2008 at 11:24 amAs a father of a boy with Downs, this type of thinking sickens me. He is such a wonderful person that has brought so much joy to me and my family I cannot imagine destroying him before he was born.
My wife and I didn’t even bother with the test for several reasons.
1. We didn’t care what the results were. We would have and love our child either way.
2. The number of false positives is very high. I just shake my head at the thought of the number of totally healthy babies who were murdered because of a false positive result. Or the joy lost by aborting a baby because you thought it would be too much hassle.
3. There is still some risk (or at least there was 17 years ago when they wanted to test my wife) to the mother and baby by doing the test.
4. There are also false negatives. Imagine your look when you get your baby that you tested and was normal, only to be told, sorry he has Downs. Talk about a mixture of emotions. And later your guilt when you think about how you would have murdered him had you only known.
We love our boy with all our hearts. Is he a challenge, oh yea. But so were our other 2 boys.
Does he need more attention, sure, but so did our other boys.
Will he grow up to live a full and happy life? Well, who knows. He probably won’t have kids. He probably won’t ever drive. Or live completely on his own.
But he is one of the happiest, easy going people I have ever known.
Loves Video games (and often beats them completely).
Loves music. His favorites are the Doors, the Stones and even the Beatles. Can sing word for word half the songs on our CDs and knows the numbers of the songs on the CDs of his favorites.
Loves Movies, soccer, baseball, bowling, picnics, cute blonds and hanging with his best friend, who also has Downs.
He can get around on the internet on his own and I often catching him surfing YouTube for the latest hot vids there.
Doesn’t like: Going to school (but does and does well.), large crowds, doing homework, going to the dentist, being sick and eating food without ketchup.
He loves to travel, swim, snow sled, jet ski, High school musical, sponge bob and Star Wars.
In other words, he’s like every other teenage boy in America.
How could I have deprived the world of someone like this? Or deprived him the right to live in our world?
September 11th, 2008 at 11:29 amFIRST ! ! !
As a Canadian, I apologize to all of you for that “putz” (I love that word) Lelonde and his patronizing attitudes. Please know that he does not speak for all of us up here.
I take it from his argument that the next step will be to assess the mother and decide if she will be a “fit” mother. He’ll look at her age, mental and physical state, her upbringing, her voting record, her bank account, whether she owns any (gasp) GUNS, has she ever expressed need to make decisions on her own, and many other criteria. If she fails in any area, then force an abortion on her because the trials of being a parental unit would be too much for her and we have to “Think of the Children”.
What a bunch of Orwellian crap.
Let the parents decide whether to have the baby or not and if they do decide to have it, uplift them and praise them for their love and devotion to their children. As I have always said, “I am Pro-Choice, and having the baby is my Choice.”
September 11th, 2008 at 11:32 amI am reminded of the line, “you sick, twisted freak.” There is an upside to this though. Every time one of these jerks say something like this it reminds everyone of Obama’s comment of babies are a punishment
September 11th, 2008 at 11:33 amEugenics … yes Eugenics … Links abortion to Elitists, and Elitists to Nazi Socialism
GK Chesterton’s Eugenics and Other Evils is the definitive work on exposing this evil.
(yes the link is to online entire book)
September 11th, 2008 at 11:34 amI actually was advised to abort all three of my kids. I get very sick during pregnancy.
The most damning conversation came with a perinatologist when I was carrying my son. She thought he had Down’s Syndrome and kept pushing me to abort. I insisted that I would never do that as my love for my kids was unconditional. On like the 5th time she said this to me during an ultrasound I threw my husband and toddler out of the room. I then proceeded to lecture the bitch and told her that she had just made her reservation in hell.
My son doesn’t have Down’s Syndrome. I never had an amnio but had a second triple check blood test. When I went back for my second and last appointment with her (mainly to smack her ass some more) and she told me he was fine I told her that if she had her way weeks ago he’d have been in a garbage can.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:38 amThis kind of thinking is genetic cleansing if I’ve ever heard. It does harken back to Nazi ideals and is quite sickening. But, is it me, or do male OBs think this line more often than female? My OB is a female and when I was offered the test she didn’t come out and say it, but I could tell she didn’t like to do it. She told me what it was for, and never, NEVER insinuated it was used as a excuse for abortion. Her tone and language was more a ‘if you have a child that tests positive, it will give you time to educate and prepare.’ This is why I have the best OB in the world. IMO.
14K,
September 11th, 2008 at 11:49 amYour story broke my heart. My SIL lost a child at 21 weeks and it was the hardest funeral I have ever been to. We now have a beautiful niece, who we cherish all the more because the earlier loss. It also makes me love my little guy more than I ever thought possible because I learned how fragile life is. And, yes, I would love him just as much if he were overtly ‘abnormal.’ What parent would say otherwise?
On account of women are stupid and weak and were never really able to handle child bearing, child rearing, and any of the difficulties arising from the human condition so it’s a damn good thing we’ve found this abortion thing to make it easier on the fairer sex.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:51 amAllen,
I remember that comment and it cheesed me off so much. I thought, wow, I bet your kids feel like superstars knowing now that your view of them is that of a punishment.
That stupid corksucking arse face.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:53 amTime for a poem by GK Chesterton
“By the Babe Unborn”
If trees were tall and grasses short,
As in some crazy tale,
If here and there a sea were blue
Beyond the breaking pale,
If a fixed fire hung in the air
To warm me one day through,
If deep green hair grew on great hills,
I know what I should do.
In dark I lie; dreaming that there
Are great eyes cold or kind,
And twisted streets and silent doors,
And living men behind.
Let storm clouds come: better an hour,
And leave to weep and fight,
Than all the ages I have ruled
The empires of the night.
I think that if they gave me leave
Within the world to stand,
I would be good through all the day
I spent in fairyland.
They should not hear a word from me
September 11th, 2008 at 11:55 amOf selfishness or scorn,
If only I could find the door,
If only I were born.
Chris already apologized for us Canadians … let me go further and point out that this putz is French-Canadian AND lives in Ottawa … the asshole of Canada.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:56 amNot all Canadian doctors are as tonedeaf (and stupid) as that asshat … my wife, a life-long Texan until she married me and I moved her to Alberta, thought the small town doctor that we had was about the best she had ever dealt with … and she has lots of health problems AND had lots of medical experienced with a handicapped son, and a father who died VERY ill …
My niece went through the testing, opted to have a Down’s baby … and I thought — at the time — that was dumb. Some years afterwards, I have thought about it, seen the result, seen how well they handle the addition of a “more needs” child … and decided I’m the dumb one!
Chris
I’m sure you and Rachel will be pleased as punch to know that the American Academy of Pediatrics wants pediatricians to ask children if there are guns in the house. They weren’t just asking the parents (although I’m sure they do that, and to me, that’s reasonable if they just want to be sure the guns are stored safely, though I wonder how many pediatricians actually know what safe gun storage is…)-
BUT- they were asking the kids.
Get a load of this:
September 11th, 2008 at 11:58 amBig Brother is Watching.
Ben:
[hug] You are blessed with an angel, and you deserve nothing but joy.
mongo:
September 11th, 2008 at 12:02 pmDon’t feel sad for me; I was, and am, also blessed : )
Meeting my first son gave me an insight into myself, my beliefs, and my faith that I probably never would have otherwise discovered.
Alaska welcomes Palin home:
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=171963
September 11th, 2008 at 12:05 pmI recently read a comment by some asshat who wanted to draw a correlation between the legalization of abortion and a decrease in crime rates. I have also seen this same person comment that being born into a low-income family destines one to a life of crime and government dependency so it would be better for these people to abort. Thank heavens my parents were unaware of this because, despite living below the poverty level for many years, they ended up with an Army captain working in the Pentagon, 2 computer engineers, a lawyer, a construction company owner and a doctor as children. Too bad they didn’t abort and save society the burden of these free-loaders and criminals!
September 11th, 2008 at 12:07 pmWe might think humanity is civilized but really we are still barbarians.
I am pro-choice. I do not know when life begins nor do I care much. I believe that technology (both contraceptive and viability of fetus outside womb) will eventually get us out of this moral abortion mess.
I believe that, even if life begins at conception, the woman has the right to kill that life (up to some point of viability of the fetus outside the womb) because that is the only way for individual woman to maintain a critical aspect of their freedom. I also believe in the death penalty. Don’t freak out, these are just my own beliefs.
However, I do not smugly say to those who believe differently than me, that if they are against abortion they shouldn’t have one. That statement is as ignorantly insulting as telling someone who does not believe in slavery that they shouldn’t own any.
Deeply held beliefs are important and cheap insults are not productive.
I would prefer to talk to others about how to deal with life and death instead of shouting at each other about it. That conversation is not going to happen in this current heated political season (and I am not going to get into one here).
Maybe Palin can kick-start that conversation without all the “Kill the Unbelievers!” crap from both sides.
I cheerfully support Palin and accept that she has some different beliefs than me.
The article is stupid of course, as it just adds fuel to a blazing hot fire.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:08 pmSorry America. It’s bugs like this that makes many Canadians, like myself. Shoot blood out of my eye’s (thanks Glenn Beck).
Or greatest challenge in Canada is not the Jihadist but the left wing that is completely unhinged and well supported by our MSM.
Again Sorry America.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:10 pmRachel M, you are officially one of my heroes.
My wife is a Special Ed teacher, and I can tell you that there is not a more happy, infectiously joyous group of humans than a bunch of 3-4 year olds w/ Downs. They make her life worth living, and she makes mine, so you can understand my violent hatred towards people who share the opinion and I’m w/ Mixed Tape, those stats are a knife in my heart.
I have a new proposal for Canada. Instead of legalizing abortion during pregnancy, lets legalize it afterward. You know, like buying a new puppy. See if it will work out for a while. Then, when pregnancy mishaps like the brilliant Dr. Lalonde aren’t quite making the grade at life in general at around, say trimester 568, we crush his head w/ some tongs and suck him up off the floor w/ a shop-vac.
Hey, at least this way, we know what we are getting. Self-rightous pricks. I’m now going to have to do some laps around the building to get my blood pressure down.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:12 pmTwenty one years ago I had a malignant melanoma removed - I was in my late 20’s. (yeah I’m still here and no I’m not paranoid to have sun touch me). I was sent to the Dermatology Clinic at University of Chicago hospital where I had the following conversation with the doctor who was treating me:
Doctor: If you get pregnant you will have to have an abortion.
Me: Why?
Doctor: Because if you get pregnant the melanoma could return.
Me: How do you know.
Doctor: We had a patient where this happened.
And there you have it - one single patient… I walked out of the office and never went back.
I went to my gynecologist who had never heard of such a thing. I found a new oncologist who finally finally found one article in an Australian medical journal. It said it was “possible” that hormone fluctuations during pregnancy “might” cause melanoma to recur. He said, “I advise you not to worry about it. I would be far more worried if you had had breast cancer.”
I didn’t have any more kids - but I wonder how many women this idiot doctor scared into having abortions because she was disseminating false information. All these years later - it still makes me very angry!
September 11th, 2008 at 12:17 pmPete in midland
It’s not that he’s a Canadian, it’s that he’s an academician. Doctors in academics, like academicians everywhere, tend to be left-leaning, in my experience. If you get out into the real world you stand a better chance of finding a doctor like the one in Alberta.
BTW, I love Alberta. I get the feeling people there don’t think like they do in Toronto.
snarky-
September 11th, 2008 at 12:18 pmI think that correlation between abortion and crime is found in the book Freakonomics. But correlation is not causality, which is something public health people frequently forget.
rocinante–
No, I didn’t fire my OB, but I should have. He wasn’t the doctor who delivered my son, though.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:39 pmDo you remember this?
Hippocratic Oath (directly from the Greek - Bold added)
I don’t think this doc has kept this oath.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:40 pmAs Canadian women(and other medical emergencies) flock over the American border to attend to complications and emergencies because they and their children/ fetuses would DIE if they did not in the snail-slow socialist health care system, the tax-paid socialist doctors demonstrate they have greater concern that they will not be able to KILL more people than that their health care system can’t keep more people alive. That is the LIBERALISM that the Demon-cratic Party wants for all of us.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pmThis is literally frightening.
It would be one thing if this “doctor” were complaining that not aborting Downs Syndrome babies puts their mothers under undue stress or something like that, but this is a whole ‘nother level of creepiness.
This so-called “doctor” is only complaining that Sarah Palin’s baby may encourage mothers not to have abortions. That’s it. He’s complaining that abortion rates may go down. He almost sounds like he’s annoyed that abortion doctors might be put out of a job or something.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:47 pmAbortion is the sacrament of the progressive/gender feminists.
Sacrifice your baby to Ba’al/Molech and join the Coven.
VoxD commenting on Camille Paglia’s latest:
The uneasy conscience of feminism
Original Paglia article
September 11th, 2008 at 12:51 pmPage, you took the words right out of my mouth…
September 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pmNot your fault, Glen. We’ve got our own ashoils south o’ the border, down ‘merica way.
I think these guys need to start reading another Canadian transplant. Mark Steyn. Now, THERE is a Canadian to be proud of!
September 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pmSounds like a win-win situation to me. After all, he wouldn’t be so vigorous in defending abortion if he didn’t truly believe there were some people we’d be better off without. Surprise, Dr. Lalonde: you’re up!! Asshole.
September 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pmIt finally occurred to me what Lalonde’s problem is: He’s concerned that the overextended government-provided “free” Canadian health care could not handle his feared influx of special-needs babies. He’s probably right.
I left a comment like this on another blog concerning Down’s:
Many years ago I dated a guy, Sam, whose 12-year-old brother, David, has Down’s. I just loved that kid! He loved to hug people and just be around them. (Truth be told, David was worth a hundred of Sam. The details would curl your hair and rightfully call my then “judgment” into question.)
It seemed to me that Down’s should not be viewed as a tragedy. It was a huge challenge from what I observed of David, but he received lots of love and appropriate measures of discipline when necessary.
Apparently just ten years ago David was still living at home with his widowed father. The father was not handling things well, but then again, this family raised the bar on dysfunction.
David would be 45 now. Even after over 30 years, I still think of him.
September 11th, 2008 at 1:17 pmPage Says:
My new mantra.
And my nomination for the “Chuch Norris Award”
September 11th, 2008 at 1:18 pmI agree with this:
September 11th, 2008 at 1:24 pmWow. That is just… revolting.
When I was pregnant the nurse mentioned getting testing done. When I told her that test results, positive or negative, wouldn’t make any difference, she seemed relieved.
September 11th, 2008 at 1:28 pmI wonder how the left will react when the elusive “gay gene” is isolated. Think they’ll be advocating abortion?
Note: I don’t believe gayness is genetic or that gays are defective, just thinking out loud.
September 11th, 2008 at 1:30 pmMom was 43 when she was pregnant with my youngest brother. She was horrified that doctors tried to convince her to have an abortion because my brother might be a Down’s baby. He was, of course, not only fine but particularly bright, turned 33 the other day, is married to a fabulous young woman, and they have two wonderful kids. I wonder how many other women in their forties weren’t as stubborn as my mom and aborted perfect children because their doctor didn’t think it was a good idea.
Sarah Palin and her husband had the guts to go ahead and have a Down’s baby. This asshole doctor can’t deal with it. Tough shit for him. Come to think of it, John and Cindy McCain adopted a Bangladeshi child with health problems…
September 11th, 2008 at 1:30 pmThanks for the nod Rocinante
I am also waiting for a “limbo land” post to clear the moderation ….
Here is an exerpt:
September 11th, 2008 at 1:44 pmI’m starting to think abortion should be mandatory for all Canadians, except for any and all children birthed by Rachel.
September 11th, 2008 at 1:57 pm“His favorites are the Doors, the Stones and even the Beatles.”
Dear Ben,
Thank you for raising your child right.
XOXO
September 11th, 2008 at 2:08 pmOh, and Mont, watch the movie “Twilight of the Golds” - a cinematic conjecture on that very topic.
September 11th, 2008 at 2:09 pmWow, so one woman gives birth to a special child and two entire nations are impacted?
Gosh, that hasn’t happened since … Jesus.
September 11th, 2008 at 2:14 pmThis just sickens me. I am at a (rare) loss for words.
September 11th, 2008 at 2:24 pmMy 37 year old daughter-in-law is pregnant with her second child, another son, due in a few months. She had to undergo “genetic councelling” a couple months ago. Yes, she and my son realize there’s an increased chance of problems due to her age. However, they’re both devout Catholics and will have the child regardless. They didn’t undergo amnio.
When my newest grandson is born, if he has a problem, there will likely be some tears. But one thing is certain, he’ll be born into a family that loves him unconditionally.
September 11th, 2008 at 2:28 pmNah, “choice” is just a synonym for abortion. If a woman chooses not to abort, it wasn’t a “choice,” by definition.
September 11th, 2008 at 2:36 pmKeep in mind that Canada has socialized medicine. They cannot afford to let people make a “choice” that will cost the government too much money.
Now tell me why people want this here.
September 11th, 2008 at 3:01 pmAs a mother of two, with one special-needs (learning disabled) child, and being six weeks pregnant with my third, I would like to beat Dr. Lalonde senseless. I’m hormonal, I could probably get away with it. Or perhaps I could just stop holding it all in and just vomit on his shoes.
Rachel, you usually make me spontaneously ovulate, but I won’t be doing that again for many, many months…
September 11th, 2008 at 3:15 pmI’d love to be around the mother of one of these children when someone would actually say something so stupid, like that in reality. I’d like to say I’d be standing by with bandages for the scratches, but I think I’d actually need a tourniquet and 911 pre-called.
September 11th, 2008 at 3:18 pmAwesome #^: Well, from conversations with my female friends (who are, however, not crack whores), it seems that women under 35 or 40 with no children can’t get their damn tubes tied.
Nobody will do it for them. They have to fight and push for it for years to have any chance of getting a ligation.
Why? Because doctors think they’ll change their minds. (Or perhaps more accurately, change their minds and sue the doctor for doing it.)
The odds might change if one said “but I’m a crack whore and just get lots of abortions”, and they’ll certainly change after a few kids … but that kinda makes it hard for the crack whore to avoid having any by getting a ligation.
Besides, people who sell their bodies for crack cocaine are typically not forward-thinking planners who take care of things like that, you know?
(On the main topic, if has become increasingly clear to me (as XRLQ says) over the years that “pro-choice” mostly means “pro-choice-to-abort”, much as evidently the only “women’s right” that exists is “the right to abort” and the only “issue” that matters to “women” is abortion - at least according to those who are activists in the area.
I’m still deeply ambivalent about the wisdom of the State banning abortions, but I’d like those involved to at least speak honestly about what they’re advocating and drop the attempts at doublespeak or self-delusion.)
(Note though that I’m not sure aborting Down’s Syndrome children is strictly eugenics, since the Syndrome is not, to my understanding, merely a matter of the parents’ genetics [which is why the odds increase with age and are as far as I know, low during youth for pretty much everyone], and those with Down’s Syndrome almost never have children.
Eugenics is, after all, a program of improving the quality of the genetic stock of a population. Aborting Down’s Syndrome children is mere convenience for the impending parents. Whether that makes it worse than voluntary* eugenics is a matter of personal opinion, I reckon.
*State-enforced eugenic policies being horrible is not a matter of opinion, at this point.)
September 11th, 2008 at 3:30 pmLet’s see. Unmarried white teen carrying a black mans child. Really tough back in the 60s. Maybe the grandparents will help?
September 11th, 2008 at 3:33 pmWe’ve come a long way. No way that woman would be punished with a child these days.
Thanks for this post — it forced me to do more reading on this issue. Particularly on the issue of socialized medicine and the increased prevalence of genetic testing.
Something for you, that combines a kid and a politician.
Besides, Bill Whittle said so.
And newbies, here’s the original pic.
[BWAHAHAHA! I love you. What's especially hilarious about that is that I did talk like that until I was 6. Couldn't say my R's right, and I've always thought that was just fuckin' funny. I even mock myself about it as often as I can. Doubleplus Good work there, 14 Karat. - Rachel]
September 11th, 2008 at 3:46 pmJust think, if we were to find the gene that makes people butt-holes and then abort all babies with that gene, jerks like this would have never been born! This joker might make a great case for abortion after all.
September 11th, 2008 at 4:04 pmConnect the dots…
In Canada, they have “free healthcare”, which means you go to the government doctor.
In the USA, we have healthcare choice; you can tell Herr Doktor Mengele to kiss your grits, and find a doctor you like.
Until The One saves us from ourselves, and brings us “free healthcare”, too.
September 11th, 2008 at 4:05 pmWhere are you getting your information from? In Canada, we choose our own doctors; there are no “government” doctors. However, I disagree with this Canadian doctor’s point of view; however, he is from Quebec, which does not speak for the rest of Canada.
September 11th, 2008 at 4:38 pm“They want to use abortion to eliminate undesirables”.
too bad that THEIR parents felt otherwise
September 11th, 2008 at 5:11 pmTearing up here after reading the posts by 14K, Ben and others. Haven’t read them all yet, cuz I have to take Jazz the Wonder Beagle for a walk.
Suffice it to say, that as a woman who has had 3 miscarriages in the last 3 years, you cannot convince me that the choice to abort a BABY (not “bioplast” as a former professor of mine insisted) does not wreak havoc with your physical and emotional health (AND affects the dads, too!).
I am decidedly pro-life. Kudos to Sarahcudah (and Trish, and 14K, and Ben…)!!
September 11th, 2008 at 5:13 pmGosh, I’m so torn here. I can’t decide which sarcastic and biting response to give.
Should I go with “‘choosing’ your own doctor in Canada means ‘choosing’ to skip across the border to visit an American hospital”?
Or should I go with “sure, if you don’t mind waiting months and months and months for a doctor’s appointment and then months and months and months for the doctor to actually see you and then months and months and months for you to actually get treated and hopefully you haven’t already passed away from your illness somewhere along the way”?
Decisions, decisions….
No, there are just doctors who are paid by the government.
Which is…..different…..I guess…..
September 11th, 2008 at 5:26 pmWow. This makes me tear up. She’s holding him so tightly and with such a ferocious mama-bear look on her face …
September 11th, 2008 at 5:31 pmI don’t have kids and never plan to, but this is just sick.
I was already pissed off when I woke up and remembered that it was 9/11. Then I got bad news and was in an even worse mood. That bad news required me to go somewhere, so as I was waiting for the train I decided to check in here to see if anything new was up that would make me feel better. This pissed me off even more. Especially since when I got on the train, standing not five feet away from me was a guy with Downs Syndrome. It was obvious that he was a very capable person as he was out by himself. Then again, fuck it, let’s just start the whole T-4 program over again. Because that’s exactly what this doctor is advocating.
You want to know what the real kicker is to my day; the bad news that I got earlier this afternoon and the reason I was on that train: my cousin’s baby is at the local hospital’s PICU on life support because of a tragic accident this past weekend and she’s not going to make it.
This doctor is a fucking asshat and given the way I’m feeling toward liberals today and especially toward this guy and all his ilk I would gladly spend eternity in Hell if it meant I got first dibs on doling out any torture I could think of on them. Dante only wishes he could come up with the shit I would do.
September 11th, 2008 at 5:32 pmWeird, but I just commented of at proteinwisdom:
Remember, fascist do what they do BECAUSE OF THE PUBLIC WEAL!!!!
September 11th, 2008 at 5:50 pmIf you haven’t seen this yet (both Ace of Spades and the Anchoress have covered it today), then go and read it. And make sure you have tissues on hand when you do.
September 11th, 2008 at 5:50 pmhM, keep us informed - and maybe entertained!
September 11th, 2008 at 6:38 pmPage,
My neighbor is in his 20s and has Down’s. He is like a ray of sunshine. Whenever I feel bad all I have to do is spend 5 minutes with him and I feel so much better. He is so wonderful!
….
I know scientists have researched genetic differences in homosexuals. What if they nail it down? Would we see women aborting because of this? I am NOT comparing homosexuality to Down’s syndrome or any birth defect, just wondering what society would say about this? Would Andrew Sullivan still think abortion was okay if they were being aborted for simply being gay? My brother is gay. I know God made him that way - perfect.
Okay, how’s that for controversy? I hope they never unlock that DNA code!
September 11th, 2008 at 7:02 pmviolet–
This man is French-Canadian, but he lives in Ottawa. The last time I checked, Ottawa was not in Quebec.
My cousin has a severely retarded child. He is now an adult, and lives in an assisted-living facility, but attends family functions with his parents and brother. He does not have Downs Syndrome; his disability was not discovered until he was two, and was first incorrectly diagnosed as autism. He is a very dear person, and no one in our family wishes he hadn’t been born. What of such as he in Canada, I wonder? Would they like to make abortion retroactive? Is this what’s coming next?
September 11th, 2008 at 8:33 pmNo way am I gonna tell her she’s doin’ it wrong - I value my nuts thank you very much…
September 11th, 2008 at 9:59 pmNot all of them will do it, but I guarantee you it will happen. Some parents won’t like the idea of never having a grandchild, others just plain won’t want a gay kid.
Personally, I’m a little worried about parents who find out their unborn child has the “gay gene” and don’t abort.
Let me explain.
What I’m concerned about is what will happen to these kids who get stamped with the “genetically gay” label before they’re even born. Will their parents tell them about it? If they do, will they treat the kid differently than they normally would? If so, what effect will this have on them in the long run? Worst of all, what if other kids at school find out about it? Kids make fun of other kids for having glasses, having big ears, or just walking funny. You think they’ll let a “genetically gay” kid slide by without torturing him in some way?
I hope they never ever ever find anything that even SMELLS like a “gay gene”.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:01 pmCharlie Gibson was dishonest about “The Bush Doctrine.” See here:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTQzODM0NmE4YTBiN2Y1YzhlMjMxM2ZjMjAzYWY3NzY=
September 11th, 2008 at 10:17 pm14 Karat, I will pray for your little one. I’ve lost children myself. The Better Half and I have been foster/adoptive parents for almost 20 years, and we’ve lost three children who were in our care. Jonathan was with us for a week before his little heart gave out. He was four months old. Faith was hydrocephalic and died in her bed the night after we brought her home from her 12th operation. She was three. Derek was with us for seven years and had moved on to a group home where he was apparently doing well. He went into the hospital for a surgical procedure and never woke up. He was ten.
No pain equals the pain of losing a child, even a foster child. If it weren’t for my faith, I truly believe I would have gone insane years ago. I know, however, that one day I’ll see all my kids again, and I’ll ask Jonathan, Faith and Derek to keep an eye out for your little guy, too.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:50 pmMighty, it’s seldom that I disagree with you, but in this case I have to say you are totally offtrack.
Having lost a wife to the wonders of a Canadian hospital, I have to agree that they can be every bit as bungling as American hospitals … but that doesn’t make me despise the entire system.
September 12th, 2008 at 7:03 amDoctors get paid by the government medical system … in Alberta - Alberta Health Care. You are free to choose your dcotor, and - unless you’re so obsessed that only this one doctor that everyone else in the free world uses is THE ONE, you might actually have to wait a day to get an appointment. Or you might see them in an hour. Just as with doctors here in the US (my wife makes her appointments quarterly since the doctor she likes is that busy … and often she gets shuffled off to a Physicians Assistant), some doctors fill their dance card to overflowing to rake in the Mercedes payments.
I might point out that I never, ever, ever heard of someone being bounced to a Physicians Assistant, or a Nurse Practitioner in Alberta. Don’t believe they even exist as a species.
Yeah, if you need elective surgery, you might be on a waiting list. My mother had to wait 3 months for a bypass operation. If the doc had deemed it an emergency, she would have been moved up the line.
Yes, there are horror stores. My previous wife was one such. In her case, it wasn’t the hospital, or the doctors, or the system that ended up costing her life … it was nurses that were more interested in being good union folks (not working) than medical professionals.
The horror stores there are no different than the horror stores here … except that here in the US they’re immediately followed by 2000 ambulance chasers urging you to sue for trillions.
The doctors get paid by “medicare”, just as they do here …. but the rates are substantially lower. The doctor we used in Alberta billed us for my wife’s visits for the 3 months before she could be included on my health care plan. They billed me the amount they would have received from “the government” … $19.31 a visit. (my “co-pays” here in Michigan are $25 a visit.) Oh, and I didn’t NEED to visit to have a recurring drug prescription refilled, they just phoned approval to the drug store — no charge — as a service.
Yes, there are some bad things about health care in Canada … but having dealt with both … I can honestly say I’ve received far better CARE for far less money in Alberta than in Michigan.
And based on the scare stories on the news here … doctors make a fortune (unless they get caught) off government payments … Medicare and Medicaid … that you and I get to pay for, but can’t collect on. At least in Canada, everyone pays and everyone collects.
Wow. This makes me tear up. She’s holding him so tightly and with such a ferocious mama-bear look on her face …
Anyone who tries to harm that child will get such an ass-whupping! Mama-bear has nothing on her!
September 12th, 2008 at 8:35 amI am Canadian and I am disgusted. Next bit of spare cash I get (not that any of it’s really “spare”) is going to the Canadian Down Syndrome Society. It’s fun to make charitable donations to spite assholes - so much better than raising the old blood pressure.
September 12th, 2008 at 9:07 amIrresponsible physicians like Lalonde and ignorant posters prey on the ignorance and fear of the general public in spouting their “opinions.”
INFORMED CONSENT
Underpinning any medical choice in America is the concept that physicians will provide their patients what is referred to in law as “INFORMED CONSENT.” A physician is legally obligated to go beyond a referral for an abortion or a rote listing of potential risks and also inform their pregnant patients of ALTERNATIVES and BENEFITS.
Lalonde’s statements in this article are hypocritical (Is “choice” only permissible when a woman chooses abortion?), irresponsible (the Hippocratic Oath binds physicians to “First Do No Harm”) and border on unprofessional conduct/ medical malpractice (physicians who fail to provide informed consent can be subject to discipline or lawsuits).
I would assert if any of us developed cancer, we would demand that our physician fully explain the risks of any given treatment, as well as the benefits and all the alternatives before we made a decision to proceed with any course of medical treatment.
Lalonde’s comments are not neutral. They are not detached. They are not professional. And they certainly don’t indicate a thoughtful review of the alternatives and benefits available in the 21st century. Lalonde has failed in his duties to the general public. Instead, he used his day in the spotlight to generate fear and LIMIT CHOICE.
CHOICE implies that women are free to pick from a variety of options (not just pick abortion because Lalonde and other similar-minded physicians scare them into it).
So what are the alternatives and benefits for parents who have received a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome?
ALTERNATIVES
There is a waiting list of over 200 families waiting to adopt babies with Down syndrome.
The National Adoption Awareness Program provides information to birth families who may be seeking alternatives to parenting as they prepare for the arrival of their child. Making an adoption plan for a child with Down syndrome is a loving choice and can be the right choice for some families. Expectant parents can call them toll free for more information at 888-796-5504 or visit their website at http://www.dsagc.com/ to view a video about adoption as an option.
BENEFITS
In addition to some hardships, there are also myriad of benefits associated with having a child who has a disability.
First, there has never been a better time to be born with Down syndrome.
Life expectancy for individuals with Down syndrome is 55 or older (as opposed to the “shortened life span” Lalonde was taught back in the Dark Ages).
Researchers are making great strides in treatments. Scientists at Stanford believe they will be able to improve cognitive functioning. Prior to counseling patients, physicians should perform due diligence and obtain continuing medical education. (see The Down Syndrome Research and Treatment Foundation http://www.dsrtf.com/)
Due to higher expectations, inclusive schools, and stronger education laws like IDEA and NCLB, more and more individuals with Down syndrome are receiving a quality education. Many make the honor roll. Many are now attending college and obtaining quality employment. Craig Blackburn travels the U.S. as a self-advocate (http://www.craigblackburn.net/). Patricia Moody is a teacher’s aide in her school district. Nannie Sanchez from Albuquerque, N.M., is an accomplished public speaker and powerful self advocate. Nannie successfully lobbied her legislature to obtain funds to establish a Self Advocacy Center in New Mexico in 2004.
People with Down syndrome can and do marry.
Some people with Down syndrome live independently and even buy their own homes.
Second, studies show that having a child with Down syndrome can benefit families
A study last year found that families with a child with DS have a lower divorce rate than all other marriages. Further, there are ongoing studies to corroborate a 2003 Austrialian study which reported that siblings of individuals with Down syndrome are more empathic and caring than siblings of typically-developing siblings.
Finally, there are countless anecdotal stories and first-person accounts about the joy and love children with Down syndrome bring to their families. (And to those who discount this anecdotal evidence, I urge you to stop using second-hand anecdotes and stories to instill fear and urge women to consider abortion as their only option). Our family is but one example. We have 3 children. Our 4-year old daughter has Down syndrome. She is silly, sweet, energetic, and bright. She loves swimming and bath time. Her sisters adore her and vice versa. Sometimes they fight. Sometimes she’s a stinker and she gets in trouble. She has taken us down a path we never imagined, and our lives are richer for it. My husband and I are more patient now. My 5-year old daughter sticks up for her friends and has an appreciation of diversity and individual differences.
Are there some health issues associated with Down syndrome? Sure. 40 to 50% will be born with heart issues. 50% will not. And – this is something Lalonde failed to mention – medical strides mean that they are surgically correctible. What health issues do we face now? Our daughter with Down syndrome gets frequent sinus infections and has reflux. But then again, so do I.
Palin has raised awareness about Down syndrome and made us take a hard look at the way we, as a society, treat those with disabilities.
But more importantly, this heightened sense of awareness is exposing prejudice, ignorance, and fear.
Physicians – this is the 21st Century. Think before you speak. Do some research and continuing education. Even research from the 1990s is no longer accurate….
And if you’re going to spout on about “choice,” make sure the PATIENT is actually given one!
September 12th, 2008 at 1:15 pmLarry J:
You got that right!
McCain/Palin ‘08
September 12th, 2008 at 7:33 pmLTBarta, thank you for the link. I watched every second of the videos, and my heart yearned.
Steve, Ben, LTBarta, et al.
I’m only going to say this once, because I don’t know that I can ever do it again.
I wish the diagnosis had been Down Syndrome rather than the alternative: I wish I had my 19-year-old son, and the joy of having known him and been a part of the life that might have been, no matter his condition.
And yes, tears are running down my face in a stream.
The respect I feel for you is immeasurable.
September 12th, 2008 at 8:56 pmYou may not be saints, but you epitomize love.
It is quite sad.My parents are VERY ACTIVE in disabilities associated with children here in Northern VA.My brother has super mild autism (in fact if you met him today you’d think he was any old regular 5 yr old…gigglin everytime he announces hes farted,and mooning people…haha.) He is such a ray of sunshine,and was adopted by my parents when a teenager became preggo.They have given him exceptional therapy that he wouldn’t have been able to get had he had his 18 yr old Mom.
Now that I am preggo and had to get the Downs test blood drawn rather recently we discussed with him about it.Im 24,and Downs doesn’t run in my family so my baby doesn’t have it.But what if? My Dad said his friend who runs the Northern VA Downs Syndrome Awareness chapter has no new members,and no young members…they are all being aborted.
On Monday my husband deployed to the Persian Gulf.We also had my appointment to find out what the baby was.He was walking around an aircraft carrier while I was trying to wake our baby up.
And…honestly,to see her spine…see her little heel and toes…and her fingers wave to me.She even is blowing bubbles in her ultrasound shots.She has the cutest nose too.
I cannot imagining aborting her regardless of her genetics.
I have a great President Reagan quote in my email that simply states…The child in the womb is simply what each of us once was: a very young, very small, dependent, vulnerable member of the human family.
September 12th, 2008 at 9:11 pmIt’s not just babies.
September 13th, 2008 at 12:23 amWhen my father was hospitalized twelve years ago, at the age of 80, the hospital staff tried very hard to convince me not to continue treatment. They listed, grimly, the treatment options, and then–big smile and sprightly voice, “Or you could just let him quietly slip away!”
I quickly disabused them of that notion. My father often expressed the desire to live at least ten more years. They reluctantly agreed, but two days later, when he had a crisis, the nurse told the orderly, “Don’t code him yet,” and sent me out of the room.
He didn’t survive.
We are living in a culture of death. We must fight, tooth and claw, if humanity is to survive.
Ok, I know I’m not all that up on my medical training, including my knowledge of what constitutes malpractice or patient’s rights and healthcare worker’s responsibilities (nurses and techs may not take the Hippocratic Oath but it’s fairly well understood we are still held to just as high a standard) but that sounds wrong. And actionable.
One of the very first things I was taught as a medic is that I cannot make a decision as to the life or death of a patient. If they were clearly in some kind of medical trouble my job was to do whatever I could to keep them alive until a doctor called time of death. Nurses, as I understand it, are held to the same standard and also can’t make those decisions. What the hell was that nurse doing?
I’m guessing by your description you never signed a DNR, in which case I really want to know what that nurse was doing. In the medical field the stress is to be over-prepared, not wait until the last damn minute before you need to start something. If that nurse knows something I don’t I want to know why I spent a good 45 minutes out of my day working at the CASF checking O2 canisters and the crash cart. Not to mention making bite sticks for seizure precautions and reorganizing and stocking the medical supply cabinets in the sleeping bays.
Maybe it’s just a military thing.
September 13th, 2008 at 5:10 pmThe first dude is a fine-looking individual.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pm