We need a “REAL WOMAN” Manifesto.

112 Responses to “We need a “REAL WOMAN” Manifesto.”

1. Cassy Says:
   

   I talked about this today.

   I agree with a lot of my readers that women and feminism created this problem. And I think you hit the nail on the head right here:

   You know what I think? I think women have utterly FAILED each other. It has almost nothing to do with men, at all. Men have this shit worked out, they have a code by which they judge each other, and it’s a good code for the most part. There’s no mystery among men about how to behave in order to be taken seriously and have a life you can look back on when you’re old and feel pride.

   What do women do? We sit around and we either bitch about men or we bitch about other women. Men don’t do what we want them to do, and other women are competition for all those men we don’t even want because they don’t obey us, so we’re never happy.

   What we don’t do, or at least I don’t see it very often and believe me, I’ve looked, is establish our own code for judging others based on qualities that really matter, like men have.

   I think that women need to do a lot of changing before we can really appreciate real men — or know what it means to be a real woman.

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
2. _Jon Says:
   

   The definition of a Real Adult:
   Being willing and able to do what needs to be done, regardless of the costs or consequences.

   Real Men discipline their smart-mouth kids, even if they hate them for a day. So do Real Women.

   Real Women change a diaper that is nasty. So do Real Men.

   Real Men drive through shitty traffic and work crappy jobs to provide for their family. So do Real Women.

   Real Women go to funerals for people they don’t really like because they know it will help ease the pain of the survivors. So do Real Men.

   It is called being an Adult. And it is real.

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
3. Sarah Says:
   

   I’ve been trying to articulate these same thoughts for a while now, especially this:

   But when you get right down to it, the real point is that women like me identify with men more because we strive to be the kind of person who, if we were male, would be called a “REAL man”. We appreciate their code because as women, we have no code of our own, at least not one that has any meaning or worth.)

   Being a genuine, whole, adult person is vastly more important than any gender distinction. And a thousand yesses on the “whore” thing– I do not think it means what they think it means.

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
4. Adam Lawson Says:
   

   I consider myself a ‘real man’ and most of my friends are, too. Maybe most men don’t do this, but we’re really quick to write off a woman if she’s a “real bitch.” You know the kind — the spoiled, whiny twat that thinks she’s entitled to do whatever she wants because she’s a woman and don’t you dare try and oppress her!

   There may not be a standard, but there is a punishment; guys like me and my friends, who would bend over backwards for the right girl, don’t give them a second look. I don’t think we’re alone, because “real men” don’t need a woman to survive, and aren’t about to tolerate a crazy bitch. (Probably why fewer young men want to get married, actually…)

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:39 pm
5. FreedomLover Says:
   

   Rachil Lukiz - you need to take a chill pill woman!

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:39 pm
6. Martin Says:
   

   Rachel: Great rant!

   And I think two things are driving this phenomenon, both of them legacies of the 60’s:

   The first thing is the idea that the pursuit of pleasure or “happiness” is the highest goal one should strive towards. No mention of duty, honor, responsibility, obligation, because all those “downer” words often require us to do things we don’t like, like scrub toilets or get killed in a war or spend our Saturday evening helping a child learn math instead of partying until dawn at a disco. It means working in a coal mine or writing a traffic ticket to a hot chick or sitting through some mind-numbingly dull physics lecture because you need those 3 credit hours to graduate. Where’s the fun in that? “If it feels good, do it” was the mantra of the 60’s and the obvious corollary to that is “if it doesn’t feel good, don’t do it.”

   The second is similar to the first, it’s a reversal of the old Social Contract. You know, the classic Social Contract was, I expect certain standards of behavior from you and I will act the same way, and therefore society works. I can leave furniture on my front porch because I can be pretty sure my neighbors won’t come over in the middle of the night and steal it. The 7-11 has an ice machine outside on the “honor system” because they know most of the people who pay for one bag of ice aren’t going to pull 50 bags out and throw them into their car. That sort of thing.

   But the new, reverse social contract goes like this: I won’t judge anything you do, and in return, you aren’t allowed to judge anything I do. So you can’t judge me for screwing as many women as I feel like and in return you can screw as many guys as you want to and I won’t judge you. You can be as lazy and irresponsible as you want and I won’t call you on it because then I know I have license to be lazy and irresponsible, too.

   It’s like life has become 2nd grade, but there are no adults around to say “enough!”

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
7. Skyler Says:
   

   Ineresting perspective. Of course it’s always good to be strong if you’re a woman, but it’s not as required.

   Real women don’t even need to be a good cook because real men will eat anything put in front of them or just make a sandwich for themselves.

   The only thing we expect of women, and it is a big thing and not tolerated to violate, is that women must be good mothers when they have children. Until they have children they can pretty much behave as they desire, but once they have children they must be good mothers. In fact, society (and perhaps biology) puts a huge expectation on women to become mothers, and until they do so there is an argument that they are still perceived as girls and not women.

   That is not expected of men. It’s good for men to be good fathers, but we can leave the kids behind without too much social disparagement. For a mother to abandon children is considered an unforgiveable crime.

   And that’s a big burden.

   We also expect women to be sympathetic and caring. Not so for men.

   Because you have chosen not to have children, perhaps you’re not seeing that expectation and all your experiences are colored by the freedom of not having had children.

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
8. otcconan Says:
   

   I have always thought of a “Real Man” as my father. He built things, had a career, owned his own business, provided for his family, took care of things around the house, made sure we followed his rules, and the like.

   My mother is a “Real Woman.” She had her own career, though she put it on hold to bear 4 children. She built a solid career, provided for her family, took care of things around the house, made sure we followed the rules, and the like.

   Theirs was the ultimate tag-team. You question my mom’s decision on whether you can watch this TV show or movie, you’re questioning my dad as well.

   And therein lies the truth of things.

   A man cannot exist, cannot really exist, without a woman who is his equal, and who totally agrees with his worldview. My father was a brilliant accountant, a CPA who saved millions of dollars for his clients. My mother spent years working with severely handicapped children. And I am convinced that either job would have been impossible without the support that they provided each other.

   Dad once said that, in every decision, if it was made by mom, or by him, it was final. They stood behind each other like granite stones. If I wanted to do something, it had to be ratified by both.

   There was no…”well, mom said I could,” stuff in our family. Because, the moment I would say that, my dad would ask my mom.

   Any decision my dad made in our family was law. Any decision my mom made in our family was law. Their disagreements were between them, and we never saw them. Point being, you could NEVER play one against the other.

   If Dad said you couldn’t go to the movies…that was it. You go to Mom and ask the same question,…and you’d get the same answer.

   May 2nd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
9. WayneB Says:
   

   We also expect women to be sympathetic and caring. Not so for men.

   I have to disagree there, Skyler. Men should definitely be sympathetic, if there is something that deserves sympathy. We aren’t expected to be sympathetic of the person who goes out and drinks all night, then has a horrible hangover in the morning, but we should be sympathetic of someone who is injured through no fault of their own, or perhaps because they were trying to do The Right Thing.

   May 2nd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
10. Flyover Country Says:
    

    I believe a REAL adult (in America) should have the following characteristics:

    ~ Working knowledge of American civics and his/her role as an individual citizen in a republic

    ~ Basic understanding of self-defense principles, both as an individual and when responsible for a family

    ~ Love for learning and self-improvement (but not that New Age hippy crap)

    ~ Desire and ability to care for loved ones

    ~ A determinative set of morality and ethics, regardless of origin (Christian, Buddhist, atheist, etc.), that allow him/her to act according to normative social and ethical behaviors

    ~ A hatred for criminal behavior and various other deviant acts as defined by law

    ~ Finally, a REAL man or woman should at all times seek to better themselves, their families and their communities

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:06 pm
11. Michellecag Says:
    

    Amen.
    Every point is just bang on,I’d say 90% of my friends are male..for all those reasons really.
    I do have a few chick friends but only because they are totally nuts(in a good way…mostly)
    I love when you write about ‘girl stuff’ Rachel(its the only “girl stuff” that ever makes any friggin sense)

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:29 pm
12. gd Says:
    

    Thank you, thank you, thank you! I’m so glad you wrote about this, Rachel. I’ve been thinking about it for years and BTW I completely agree with you:

    All adults should have every one of those personality and character traits as a matter of course.

    Too many people don’t know what it means to be an adult these days, and it seems as if many folks have simply abdicated on this and opted for the easy way out. I see this thread as a subtext running through many of society’s current problems. It has also often been frustrating to try and raise children who will become real adults when it runs counter to present cultural standards such as, “Me first,” “It’s not my responsibility,” and “If it feels good, do it.”

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:44 pm
13. Mister Prickly Says:
    

    Only a real woman would have her picture taken with ‘Wachel’ on her bike helmet, and then post it for the world to see. GO, RACHEL!!! RAH RAH ROCK!

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:46 pm
14. LabRat Says:
    

    I’ve had something like this sitting on my mental back burner for weeks, and I’m not sure whether to be annoyed you got there first or grateful because it really needs a few more bolts of lightning before the monster is ready to rise.

    Suffice it to say I think the problem is very old. The most recent era of feminism aggravated it by tearing down the few touchstones of womanly ideals that had been made, but they didn’t create the problem, they just exposed it. For the vast majority of history, sheer biology dictated the woman’s role: in the home. Unless she wanted to stay single and celibate (highly discouraged except for a few specialized roles), she was going to get pregnant, and she needed to be the primary caretaker. For just about every society that advanced far enough to develop complex philosophies of virtue (whose own root word describes the ideal man), womanly virtue was defined and shaped by her relation to- and usually thorough subservient relationship to- men. The most familiar example is the Biblical outlining of their roles, but the Bible was actually pretty progressive compared to the societies of the time and place in implying that women had a moral character that could be compared and contrasted to a man’s at all.

    Since the idea of masculine virtue was by default what made a good citizen that participated in all aspects of society- the home, business, the military, the community- and not just half of these, feminine ideals were half defined by what works well in the home, and half just by sheer contrast: what a man is not. (Delicate, gentle, highly emotional, “tender”…) Taken to their extreme, they didn’t make for a woman good for much except ornamental purposes- a goal which became extremely explicit in some cultures. (What else do you do with a woman with bound, nearly useless feet and nails two feet long?)

    Now take all this background and plunk women down in a technically adept society where they aren’t born into mother-and-homemaker as a matter of destiny, but they have no idea what they’re supposed to be other than “just as good as any man, honey”- but certainly not MANLY, because that’s still an insult to call any woman. Is it any wonder we’re confused?

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
15. mhuete Says:
    

    DearRachel,

    I want to have your babies.

    In a manly way, of course.

    v/r
    mike

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
16. Ben Says:
    

    Rachel, another great post. This one reminded me of a story I thought I’d share.

    I was at my mother-in-laws for a family gathering. I was helping some of the kids in the back yard climb a tree.

    One of my nephews, had climbed up but was scared to come down. I said exactly what you posted.
    “Don’t be a wimp.” I felt kind of bad and of course helped him down.

    He then went running into the house to cry to his mother that I called him a wimp.

    I’ll never forget her response. “Well don’t prove him right.”

    That was priceless. Just wanted to share.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:53 pm
17. Kit Says:
    

    I’m loving this post! And I have some thoughts, a short list of things Real Women should be/do:

    1. A Real Woman treats her man like an adult. She does not talk about how he ‘is just helpless!’ without her.
    2. A Real Woman can and will defend herself and her children.
    3. A Real Woman knows how to talk to mechanics. She is not a pushover.
    4. A Real Woman lets men open doors, offer arms, and pick up checks. A Real Woman will also take her man out for a beer on her dime now and again.
    5. A Real Woman knows how to give a damn good back and/or foot rub.
    6. A Real Woman knows that if she bears a child, it is her responsibility to care for it.
    7. A Real Woman keeps her temper in check, even when she’s having a bad day.
    8. A Real Woman does not discuss menstruation in mixed company. Ever.
    9. A Real Woman does grows old gracefully. She does not pretend that she is still 25 when she is nearly twice that age.
    10. A Real Woman does not drink herself unconscious in public.
    11. A Real Woman does not voluntarily purchase and wear underwire bras, stilettos, skin-tight pants, mini-skirts, and low-cut tops and then bitch about men ogling her.
    12. A Real Woman does not look down her nose at homemakers or full-time workers. Homemakers know that they need to get up, shower, and dress every day. All Real Women know that their men work hard, too, and don’t treat them like lazy bastards on weekends.
    13. A Real Woman knows how to work the tools in her home.
    14. A Real Woman does not shriek when she is angry at someone. She remains as calm as she would want that person to be with her.
    15. A Real Woman knows how to do basic home maintenance. She can clean gutters, mow lawns, repair squeaky doors, etc.

    I think that’s all I’ve got. Good enough for a start?

    May 2nd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
18. frigger Says:
    

    Another brilliant post Rachel.

    One of the things that distresses me most about these modern times and our degraded culture is the fact that even us males have disposed of the codes that used to make men “real men.”

    What we have now is more of free-for-all, Lord of the Flies, Gangsta mentality - all the boys think they’re gonna be “real men” by joining a gang, killin people, and treating women like garbage. (And as long as some women are willing to go along with this - and very many are - we’re doomed).

    So, for your enjoyment, I will include here the code I have lived by all my adult life. (I didn’t have much of a father - luckily I happened upon this at a very young age). I still have it, framed, and it rests, prominently displayed on my nightstand.

    You will think it’s corny, but it works and is EXACTLY the kind of “code” you are referencing.

    GENE AUTRY’S COWBOY CODE (1939)

    1. The Cowboy must never shoot first, hit a smaller man, or take unfair advantage.

    2. He must never go back on his word, or a trust confided in him.

    3. He must always tell the truth.

    4. He must be gentle with children, the elderly, and animals.

    5. He must not advocate or possess racially or religiously intolerant ideas.

    6. He must help people in distress.

    7. He must be a good worker.

    8. He must keep himself clean in thought, speech, action, and personal habits.

    9. He must respect women, parents, and his nation’s laws.

    10. The Cowboy is a patriot.

    I live near Cincinnati, so I am hardly a cowboy - But I do live by the code because it is good for all men. I have given this out (printed on parchment and framed) to many kids, mostly boys.
    (Sometimes to girls, in the hope that they will know what to look for in a man one day). Most of their parents have always been shocked that it was written in 1939. Because, of course, prior to 1964 everyone was a horrible racist/sexist/oppressor, right?

    Well, looks like the opposite had been more correct for us real cowboys.

    I had always thought exactly along the same lines as you - why hasn’t there ever been a female equivalent of a “code to live by?” Maybe you can modify this somehow for women? I don’t know - I have trouble imagining many modern girls or women (and my apologies, I am thinking Desperate Housewives types, the catty, bitchy type) would ever go for any kind of code that might seem to regulate or suppress their whims or momentary emotional cravings. But there must be plenty of good women out there, especially with daughters, who would appreciate a little bit of a moral compass…

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
19. frigger Says:
    

    Wow, I just read Kit’s post and it’s equally brilliant - nice job, Kit!

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
20. pete in Midland Says:
    

    Good read!

    The only comment I’ll make is I haven’t a clue if I’m a real man … because I really don’t give a crap what anyone else thinks of me … well except the woman I’m married to and my mother. I spent a lot of years fighting an inferiority complex (and ended up on the opposite pole, LOL) and being comfortable in my own skin … and discovered that I have to respect someone else to give a damn how they feel about me.

    Well, time to take the bacon home and take spousey out for supper … have a great weekend y’all

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
21. Ethne Says:
    

    But my ass does look large in these jeans… wait, you mean it’s because my ass is large?

    What? You mean the universe doesn’t revolve around me?

    sigh

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
22. Peregrine John Says:
    

    We have a code? Bloody hell. No one ever told me. Maybe the J-man will give me a drag on his cig. What we do have is a couple generations of people telling us that any previously existing code is bunk, evil, or evil bunk, and that a “real man” is whatever you were last told it was, even if it’s the opposite of the previous iteration.

    Ok, I’ll take that drag, now.

    Right, then. The problem didn’t start with, but certainly is related to, whatever caused “gentleman” to be defined by what he does, and “lady” defined by what she doesn’t. I could blather about that for days, but will leave it to your consideration. Gonna guess that it’s related to the “isn’t this what all adults should do?” question.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:39 pm
23. PaleoMedic Says:
    

    Fuckinay, Rachel. Spot on.

    I think there is a desrie for women to be real women. I married a real woman, who runs the household without being a bitch about it. Face it; real women are inherently more stable, when allowed to be themselves. I recall a scene in John Adams, when John is throwing a tantrum about not being elected president, and Abigail makes a simple, soothing, wonderfully feminine statement of fact, “John. You are vice president.”

    I don’t have anything to add, at this moment. I have the day off and I’m a little drunk. Dammit. I’ll sober up and be more logical and stuff.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:43 pm
24. Turk Turon Says:
    

    You might enjoy the book “Self-Made Man” by Norah Vincent.

    The author spent a year disguising herself as a man and going to men’s bowling leagues, monasteries, strip clubs and dating single women. Her insights on masculinity and feminity are very interesting.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
25. JC Says:
    

    You might want to check you the classic “Tough Chicks” rant by Mike (http://coldfury.com/TC.html), for a classic read on the “Real Woman” desiderata

    May 2nd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
26. stylinjulie Says:
    

    Let me just throw this into the mix to make it interesting. My dad, who just passed away in December, was gay. He “came out” in 1981, right around when I graduated from high school. When I reflect on my years growing up, I see that he exhibited many of the qualities discussed here - he worked an often thankless job to provide for his kids, he took care of the house and yard (not his favorite things to do), he taught me and my sisters to be responsible (no chores, no allowance), inspired in us a love of learning and knowledge (it was a big thing to get your first library card), and encouraged us to always do our best. He was a good neighbor, a loyal friend, and a caring husband, father, son, and brother. From him I learned to enjoy making people laugh. I inherited his love of wordplay and puns. And he taught me how to do cartwheels, which he was still able to do himself well into his late 60’s.

    My dad was not “manly” in the way some would envision that quality. But I would call him a “real man” anyway.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
27. Kendrick Says:
    

    Mentally, emotionally, and intellectually strong, even if not physically (crippled and elderly men can still be “real” men). Hardworking, honorable, honest, dutiful, protective of family and country. Brave, courageous, rational, reasonable, kindhearted, and respectful. Knowledgeable about how to survive in rough times and how to solve problems. And so on.

    The reason that this list isn’t applied to all adults is that most women simply don’t measure up, and any guy who points this out is considered a misogynist.

    I don’t think that I can really compare emotional strength between men and women, but when it comes to emotional control, most women fall way behind.

    When it comes to honor, most women again don’t measure up. Most women will do the bare minimum to be considered honest, but having honor means going beyond that and choosing your actions such that you not only meet all obligations you have explicitly or implicitly incurred, but also so that you don’t place inappropriate obligations on others. Even most men don’t really live honorably all the time - I’d say at most a sixth of the men I’ve met could truly be said to live with honor. But women? I’ve met one woman in my life who did so. The vast majority of women simply don’t consider it necessary. Most men at least give it a try most of the time, even if they fail in certain areas.

    And protecting your family? This one isn’t necessarily one that a majority of women fail at, but those who do like to fail big time. My brother has a daughter with his girlfriend. My other brother once asked her if she wanted to go shooting with us so she would know how. She declined and said, “It doesn’t matter, I could never shoot anybody no matter what.” So my brother asks, “Not even if somebody broke into your apartment and threatened your daughter?” (And they live in a bad area that’s had several home invasions in the last 4 months) “Nope. Not even then.” What the hell? And this attitude isn’t unique to my brother’s crazy girlfriend. A significant percentage of women feel this way.

    So, basically, the reason that what you’ve said will never get adopted as a standard for “real adults” is that very few women and even fewer men are willing to stand up and point out that something like 80% of women don’t meet the minimal standards for adult behavior, nevermind the higher standards of admirable behavior you propose. And that’s a sad, sad fact; there’s nothing inherently superior about men that enables them to have honor and self-control while most women don’t. It’s simply that men are expected and encouraged to develop these virtues, and women aren’t.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:06 pm
28. Jess Mills Says:
    

    It’s posts like this that have me reading your blog on a daily basis.

    Keep up the “tell-it-like-it-is” attitude, and keep writing. Whether or not you’re always right (and who is all the time?), the world needs more people who can share their beliefs with eloquence, passion, and a general “don’t-give-a-shit” candor.

    Of course, the fact that I personally think you’re spot-on 90% of the time helps!

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
29. Pat Berry Says:
    

    Robert Heinlein took a swing at this idea in “The Notebooks of Lazarus Long” (part of the novel Time Enough for Love).

    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects!

    Notice that he says “a human being”, not “a man”. So this is a code for being a Real Man or a Real Woman.

    But elsewhere in the Notebooks, Heinlein wrote about something else that probably applies to men only:

    All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury or folly which can — and must — be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a “perfect society” on any foundation other than “women and children first!” is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly — and no doubt will keep on trying.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
30. Pat Berry Says:
    

    It occurs to me that what we’re really talking about is a notion that English doesn’t have a word for. But Yiddish does. We’re discussing how to be a mensch — a concept that applies equally to men and women.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
31. Rickvid in Seattle Says:
    

    “It’s like life has become 2nd grade, but there are no adults around to say ‘enough!’”

    Amen brother!

    Kit sez:

    “11. A Real Woman does not voluntarily purchase and wear underwire bras, stilettos, skin-tight pants, mini-skirts, and low-cut tops and then bitch about men ogling her.”

    This past weekend I was in a favortie pub. Sitting at one end of the bar were two women, one in her 20’s the other in her later thirties. Both real lookers. But, both were heavily tatooed, the older one far more so. Both wore rather low cut, short sleeved tops (does that word make me metro?). The older one was chesty, too, and shook nicely when she laughed.

    I could not help looking. She and I locked eyes for a moment and she flashed me a nice grin. Nothing provovtive, and especially not angry. She had stuff to show and did not mind men, at least, taking a gander.

    Lately I have taken a bus to work in downtown Emerald City. Seems offering a seat to women, even ones who are pregnant or using canes, is almost utterly unknown to the XY engendered critters of this burg. I get lots of funny looks when I do so. Well, actually I see many more women offering seats. I guess these are some of the “real women.” The metros boyz sit like slugs on a log, I-pods plugged in and so zoned out I almost expect them to drool from idiocy.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:35 pm
32. Allen Says:
    

    I like to think of it this way. A man and a woman with two kids set out across the country with all their worldly possesions in a wagon. There were no gender roles, it was all about survival. The requirements then are the same as they always will be regardless of the level of technology. They include:

    Patience
    Perseverance
    Knowledge
    Hard work
    Kindness
    Respect
    Love

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:36 pm
33. Pat Berry Says:
    

    Lately I have taken a bus to work in downtown Emerald City. Seems offering a seat to women, even ones who are pregnant or using canes, is almost utterly unknown to the XY engendered critters of this burg.

    You can thank the feminists for this. Men used to give up their seats to women because they knew that this was considered a good thing to do. It’s not that simple anymore. Today, if I offer my seat to a woman, she may thank me and take it — or she may angrily refuse and lecture me on what an ignorant sexist throwback I am. There’s no way to know.

    The safest course of action is to say nothing, do nothing, and let the women remain standing.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
34. Reno Sepulveda Says:
    

    Don Corleone: Ah, I don’t know. Your wife and your children, are you happy with them?
    Michael: Very happy.
    Don Corleone: That’s good. I hope you don’t mind the way I keep going over this Barzini business.
    Michael: No, not at all.
    Don Corleone: It’s an old habit. I spent my life trying not to be careless. Women and children can be careless but not men. How’s your boy?
    Michael: He’s good.
    Don Corleone: You know, he looks more like you everyday.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
35. frigger Says:
    

    Pat Berry -

    You are completely correct.

    But a gentleman doesn’t base his behavior on what he thinks MIGHT be the outcome.

    He does what ought to be done (lives by the code), and lives with the consequences.

    Sometimes you get a “thank you.” Sometimes you get a “piss off.” So what? For me, one smiling woman offering a “thank you” for holding a door can get me through a whole year of a hundred other miserable and bitter women scolding me for same. I just dismiss those episodes as unworthy of my contemplation.

    It simply shouldn’t matter. Being a gentleman, (a real man) is a one-way street and should always remain so.

    Come what may, there ought to be at least one dependable constant in the universe.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 5:07 pm
36. silvermine Says:
    

    Well, I think you’ve missed a lot of this by not having kids. Once you have kids, it’s super freaking crazy checklist judgement land.

    Did you go natural? Did you breastfeed? Make your own baby food? Go to mommy and me gym class? Have a theme and a party for every birthday? Get into the “best” preschool? And so on blahblahblah until you want to scream. There’s too many insane expectations and every mom is judged by them like crazy.

    That’s why I like to hang out with guys, too. Always did.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 5:13 pm
37. Hu Ugonna Caw Says:
    

    A real woman can squeeze out a baby and get back to working in the fields. D’oh!

    If someone says I am not a real man, then I might take offense, depending upon the speaker. From someone like John Wayne, yeah, that might sting a bit, but I’d rub dirt on it and move along. From a woman, well, she’s probably a feminist, so who cares. Or, as the joke goes “That’s not funny!”

    I can do most of the things on Heinlein’s list. Studied military strategy, can shoot pretty good, used to design computer chips, have built many houses and taught architecture, can fell trees, repair cars, build and run power tools, make product that people will buy, tend animals, treat injuries, identify stars, trees, plants, animals, write machine code for a CNC machine, raise children, make money, save money, cook, clean, all of those things and many more.

    Needless to say, I don’t fit in well in modern society.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 5:21 pm
38. Martin Says:
    

    Today, if I offer my seat to a woman, she may thank me and take it — or she may angrily refuse and lecture me on what an ignorant sexist throwback I am. There’s no way to know.

    Sorry but I call bullshit on this. I’ve been riding public transportation for years. I’ve never had this happen, never seen it happen, never even heard of it happening. People offer their seats to others all the time. Sometimes the people take them up on thier offer, sometimes they don’t. But I’ve never seen anyone react rudely to an offered seat or an opened door.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 5:23 pm
39. A Recovering Liberal Says:
    

    Turk Turon, I agree that Norah Vincent’s book offers a lot of food for thought.

    JC, Mike’s “Tough Chicks” post is a classic. I like to reread every so often.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 5:44 pm
40. dr kill Says:
    

    Gas, grass or ass - nobody rides for free. Real men and women don’t ever ride for free.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
41. frigger Says:
    

    Martin -

    I gotta agree that it is very rare. Thankfully a sign of the waning effects of feminism.

    But it has happened to me a couple of times.

    Maybe the reason you haven’t seen it is because it only happens in a setting where it’s just 2 people. Amongst a crowd, even the feminists won’t make a scene. But a feminist (almost) alone - with one guy whom SHE KNOWS is a gentleman - well, it’s an opportunity to unleash. And I’ve been on the receiving end. Remember, the only reason she feels COMFORTABLE in the least to rattle off her feminist propaganda is due to the fact that she possesses a sense that the guy who is the object of her scorn and hatred is a GENTLEMAN in the first place. (He won’t raise a finger - he’ll just “take it.”)

    Again, I’ll agree it’s very rare. But not non-existent.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:08 pm
42. N. O\'Brain Says:
    

    Rachel, you REALLY getta start reading Robert A. Heinlein.

    Seriously.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:13 pm
43. C. S. P. Schofield Says:
    

    Some suggestions:

    1) A real woman will either be honestly aggressive, or shut up about it. Passive aggressive is a nasty little trick for people who weren’t taught how to get along with others.

    2) A real woman will remember that hinting, while fun, is not a reliable form of communication, especially with a man.

    3) A real woman will not dress in such a way as to cause comments that she is unwilling to hear. If you wear slut-wear to the bar, you don’t get to complain about being propositioned.

    4) A real woman does not become pregnant through stupidity, forgetfulness, or lack of planning.

    5) A real woman undergoes surgery for reasons of health, period.

    6) A real woman does not violate the norms of her culture simply to be trendy or hip, particularly where such violation involves permanent change, such as tattooing.

    7) A real woman knows how to dress well, whether she chooses to do so or not.

    A real woman does not live with a semi-permanent chip on her shoulder. (Exceptions for real women living in cultures that treat women like farm animals.)

    9) A real woman allows the men in her life some time without female company, and expects the courtesy to be returned.

    10) A real woman has something to do with her life other than to wait for a man, or a child, or a lover. Maybe being a mother is the most important thing she wants to do, but she has something else, too. Maybe being a loving partner completes her life, but it is never all she is.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:27 pm
44. ns Says:
    

    Kit,

    Your list can be applied to men as well. (Except the menstruation one). Like Rachel said, the list of qualities for women or men should be applied to both sexes.

    (and not addressed directly to Kit…)
    If anyone complains about women not doing so and so, rephrase and ask if you yourself is doing so and so already. If we are honest with ourselves, most of the time, the standards we expect out of others, we don’t practice ourselves. pot, kettle, all that.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:29 pm
45. curious Says:
    

    Rachel, you said:

    ‘And a lot of women, when talking about “real men”, would throw in even more: Be sensitive to your woman’s emotional needs; she’s tender. Don’t look at women as sex toys or objects for pleasure. Take care of problems the women can’t take care of because we’re smaller, like moving that bookshelf. You know what I’m talking about. And that’s all fine and good.’

    When I look at this list, I tend to see it as specific examples of things that frankly generalize to all adults:

    ‘Take care of problems the women can’t take care of because we’re smaller, like moving that bookshelf.’
    becomes:
    ‘Help people who are weaker than you are in whatever dimension.’
    I’m sensitive to this one because I am well equipped by nature to move large heavy things, and so it is not uncommon for me to have to move bigger heavier things for other men as well as women.

    ‘Be sensitive to your woman’s emotional needs; she’s tender.’
    becomes
    ‘Be sentitive to other peoples emotional needs.’
    Because while a real adult can keep on marching when their emotional needs aren’t being met, lets face it, we all have them, and we all feel better when other people give a damn. Women provide a lot more emotional support to men than they are usually given credit for.

    ‘Don’t look at women as sex toys or objects for pleasure.’
    becomes
    ‘Don’t look at people as things to be used.’
    (which applies all round… if your male it encompasses not seeing women as sex toys, if your are female it encompasses not seeing men as wallets…)

    I suspect when the dust settles, there is only one list for being a ‘real adult’, independent of gender, though some of the applications may vary a bit by gender.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:30 pm
46. jwmick Says:
    

    otcconan:”If Dad said you couldn’t go to the movies…that was it. You go to Mom and ask the same question,…and you’d get the same answer.”

    Same answer???!! We’d get our asses handed to us!!

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
47. Old Dan Says:
    

    Pat Berry gets it: be a mensch. In my crowd, for the men, he’s either a good guy or not. No other adjective needed.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
48. felicity Says:
    

    Awesome post, Rachel!

    I’m another one of those women who tend to drift over to the men’s conversation at gatherings. My daughters and I joke that, to paraphrase a Jane Austen line, it’s because they “talk about things — we never talk about things!” (Just yesterday, my own mother went a funny color when I talked about “my next gun!”)

    But why shouldn’t we? If a ‘real woman’ can’t discuss politics, guns, livestock, trucks, etc., as well as recipes, cleaning agents, offspring, and aging parents? I don’t want to be one!

    “Christ with a cigarette.”

    It’s not easy trying to raise a daughter to just be, as Pat Berry so aptly put it, a mensch — but that’s our goal here with our two.

    BTW, I’ll have you know your blasphemies are contagious. Recently caught myself muttering, “Christ on a Krispy Kreme!” and now I’m going straight to Hell, and it’s all your fault! (But hey! I’ll bet the people there will “talk about things!”)

    May 2nd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
49. N. O\'Brain Says:
    

    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

    -Robert A. Heinlein

    May 2nd, 2008 at 7:09 pm
50. mockmook Says:
    

    Rachel,

    A real man would have said all that in about 4 sentences, and moved on

    May 2nd, 2008 at 7:53 pm
51. mockmook Says:
    

    PS
    I like, no, LOVE women who act like “real men”, does that make me gay?

    May 2nd, 2008 at 7:57 pm
52. Erin_Coda Says:
    

    Here are a few more from my end:

    Real women understand that even if they kill bugs, change their own oil, and fly fighter jets, they are not men, and they are okay with this.

    Real women do not need to be told that they “deserve” chocolate, bubble baths, naps, shoes, etc– they are adult enough to fulfill their own desires without needing permission.

    Real women, even when they’re being a little naughty, use their feminine wiles Only For Good.

    Real women do not have to “close their eyes and think of England”.

    Real women do not mistake discretion– especially someone ELSE’S discretion– for shame.

    Real women know how to take a compliment, and how to deliver one.

    Real women ask for what they want, and are not offended when someone else asks for whatever THEY want.

    Real women don’t talk about their “self worth”, and don’t need a guru to tell them about it either.

    Real women know that men, given the choice between a woman with good looks and a woman with good personality, will leave the contest to find Option Three– and real women conduct themselves accordingly.

    Real women do not cut their men down, ever, and especially not in public.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 7:58 pm
53. Thor Says:
    

    The comments I leave on blogs that I read are usually argumentatative or sarcastic. But this is one of the best, most thoughtful and honest posts I have ever read in my life, swear to God. It really captures a lot of my dissatisfaction as a guy in this society. I will save this for my daughter to read when she is a little older. Thank you.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 8:01 pm
54. John F Not Kerry Says:
    

    Everything you need to know about real men and women can be found on Little House on the Prairie. Aside from the Olsen family
    (with the exception of the father), the ideas of sacrifice and service are paramount, and people made it through happy and sad times. I know the youth of America might have a hard time identifying with the show, but old-fashioned doesn’t always mean out of touch with truth.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
55. MitchT Says:
    

    Have to call BS on WayneB. Check out the cover on Michael Yon’s book here (scroll down) and tell me that Real Men aren’t compassionate.

    Me? Well, I’ve always liked the quotes of Robert Heinlein’s Lazarus Long character.

    Personal Favorites:

    It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier.

    Most women are damn fools and children. But they’ve got more range then we’ve got. The brave ones are braver, the good ones are better — and the vile ones are viler, for that matter.

    Want more? Well have a look here.

    Love Ya, Rachel.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 8:21 pm
56. HeatherRadish Says:
    

    Why can’t I just say I’m a “real woman”?

    If you can get a majority of women to believe that it’s even possible for non-mothers to be “real women”, I will be your devoted acolyte forever.

    But I suspect it can’t be done.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 8:24 pm
57. Genie Says:
    

    A-freaking-men Rachel! I have been betrayed, skewered and screwed over by the “sisters” with a viciousness most men aren’t capable of mustering. And you are so right about guys being less complicated (except when they are trying to get in your pants). So until we get this “Real Women Manifesto” in place, my hubby and his goofy brothers with remain at the top of my list of best friends.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 8:29 pm
58. frigger Says:
    

    Heather Radish -

    I am in agreement with you. On the one hand, I am a Roman Catholic (not really practicing) and I do think that in terms of the species (or God) the directive seems to be that man and woman are meant to pair so that offspring result.

    But for an individual who wants a life lived happily and fulfilled, sometimes marriage and family are not a good fit. And that’s OK too. Like I have explained to some of my friends “it is possible that God has certain plans in place, which, for some people, do not include marriage.” (If you are non-religious, please substitute: “sometimes Nature does not command that all mammalian life forms pair and procreate.”)

    So if we take away marriage and family from the equation, you are right to say that motherhood ought not to be a requirement for “real woman” status.

    I don’t like the moniker anyway. I don’t even like the “real man” thing. (See my earlier post on the Cowboy code)

    I think what most of us are striving for here is some sort of codification of the terms that make civilization possible, and for a life lived more easily and happily and with more understanding - which means that, FIRST THING -

    men need to respect (and try to understand) women and that women need to respect (and try to understand) men.

    If this rule is in place and agreed upon, we’ll get along pretty nicely. Marriage and kids are not essential to the equation (my wish is for a wife and family one day) but I could never say, in the least, that to be a “real woman” you need to have children. Some men can’t. Some women can’t. You can adopt (or one can say “God wants you to adopt” or that “the human species suffers from a dereliction of duty on the part of a certain percentage of birth parents so Darwin/Nature steps in, filling the void with adoptive parents.” I couldn’t care less how anyone chooses to interpret/view the preceeding sentence.

    I have noticed that some women on this blog tend to think that some fulfillment in life is had by virtue of producing children. While I applaud that notion, intellectually I know that it is fueled by emotion. But then again, we tend to have the best kind of women in America visit this blog - so we’re gonna hear from the mothers, certainly, as we should.

    So, though it is a validation of femininity for some, (birthing children) on an individual basis, it doesn’t make it necessarily true for all. Sorry for the long-winded treatise on “how it is that I agree with you.”

    The simple fact is that real men desire real women - and vice versa. I think, in a nutshell, we seek fair treatment and approval from the opposite sex, and when we see living proof we declare “real man” or “real woman.”

    Some have discovered a great partner, and life is blissful. Lucky.

    Many have not.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 9:07 pm
59. Janna Says:
    

    Speaking of opening doors for women and being lectured to:
    In the 70s I worked in Dallas at Texas Instruments.

    Feminism was oppressing the masses and generally making a nuisance of itself, when a British fellow came in our office laughing. He’d just opened a door for one of our obnoxious feminazis, who began a tirade about how capable she was of opening her own doors thankyouverymuch.
    He held up his hand and in impecable English said “Terribly sorry, madam. My error, I mistook you for a lady.” Then he shut the door in her face and walked away. He said the look on her face was utter shock.

    The women in my office had a special place in our hearts for him after that. (and before that, too, his accent was dreamy)

    May 2nd, 2008 at 9:22 pm
60. Christ on a cookie Says:
    

    Christ with a cigarette

    Can I bum one of those from you man?

    May 2nd, 2008 at 10:06 pm
61. physics geek Says:
    

    Sorry but I call bullshit on this. I’ve been riding public transportation for years. I’ve never had this happen, never seen it happen, never even heard of it happening.

    You need to get out more. It’s happened to me a couple of times. I’ll go one further and mention that I once tried to open a door for a grrrrlll whose arms were full, really full. She started bitching at me for treating her like an inferior blah, blah, blah. So I went in, closed the door and pull it until it locked, forcing her to walk around the building to next door. Dickish? Sure, but I would have held the door for any PERSON carrying that much crap, regardless of sex.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 10:21 pm
62. Jolly Green Says:
    

    I’m surprised they haven’t been mentioned:

    Boy Scout codes:

    Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.

    Be Prepared.

    On my honor I will do my best
    To do my duty to God and my country
    and to obey the Scout Law;
    To help other people at all times;
    To keep myself physically strong,
    mentally awake, and morally straight.

    http://www.scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-503a.aspx

    May 2nd, 2008 at 10:49 pm
63. Lazlo Says:
    

    Man good, kill stuff, everybody eat.
    Woman good, make food taste good, make little persons come from belly place.
    Man good, give up bear skin ’cause you cold.
    Woman good, catch food when man recovering from bear scratches.
    Man good, no bad guys get in cave, take our stuff.
    Woman good, chase bad guys twenty miles and make them sorry they were born.
    Man good, no tell worries.
    Woman good, make worries go away.
    Man good, give best to woman, every day.
    Woman good, give best to man every day.
    Man good, looks at world, decides he belong there.
    Woman good, makes world worth belonging in.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 11:12 pm
64. Finess Fogg Says:
    

    You said “If I were a man, I’d be pretty pissed off that in order to be considered “real”, I’d have to live by some set of standards that no one demands women live by, too.”

    I’m a man, I’m not pissed. I learned my code of conduct in the Boy Scouts years ago. I think it is great to have a standard to measure yourself against. I think it is too bad there isn’t one for women.

    May 2nd, 2008 at 11:34 pm
65. Caldfyr Says:
    

    “If I were a man, I’d be pretty pissed off that in order to be considered “real”, I’d have to live by some set of standards that no one demands women live by, too.”

    Women do live by the standards. The problem is, far too many girls grown older think they’re women. Us real men are content to wait for decent women to cross our paths, and the girls grown older can’t stand it.

    My ten years (so far) in the military have taught me a few things. I’ll never be rich, but I’ll live comfortably, and that’s good enough for me. Civilians could take a lesson from that. Discipline and a good work ethic isn’t a terrible thing, and it also doesn’t mean you have to be a workaholic.

    So many non-Rachel/Helen blogs mention the growing trend of happily-single non-workaholic men enjoying their hobbies, and then whine about the supposed shortage of “real men”, as if there was any link between the situations. What is it, exactly, that is so terrible about realizing that wanting a woman and needing a woman are not the same thing? What’s wrong with being content with your quality of life, with being capable of balancing your work and your play?

    This whole thing is silly. Marriage is supposed to be about finding a best friend and a lover. Very few of my married coworkers seem to be married to friends OR lovers. They aren’t happy, and their wives are emotionally abusive. Husbands have a choice of “manning up” and being miserable, or submitting and avoiding extra hassles and maintaining a meager amount of sex.

    And what the hell is with all these ideas of ENTITLEMENT? I’m sick of girls thinking that rights and privileges don’t come with associated responsibilities.

    What is it about ovaries that makes girls think they’re special? Dr. M actually wrote that she thinks being able to produce children should be respected. Loving mothers and fathers who responsibly raise children should be respected. Having the correct equipment just makes her a female.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 am
66. Ed Minchau Says:
    

    But my ass does look large in these jeans… wait, you mean it’s because my ass is large?

    What? You mean the universe doesn’t revolve around me?

    Well, our galaxy revolves around a supermassive black hole…

    May 3rd, 2008 at 12:29 am
67. Ezzer Says:
    

    Didn’t Rachel write a post about one of her neuroses - a post about how sometimes it takes her ridiculous amounts of time to find a pair of socks she can be happy with? And that sometimes the ordeal of finding that particular pair of socks for that particular day can reduce her to tears?

    There’s a contrast for you. Rachel crying over socks is likely interpreted as cute, or quirky, or even silly. How would people feel about a man reacting the same way?

    Men are proud of how much help they don’t need. Women are proud of how much help they can demand.

    …and that second line has nothing to do with women being *helpless*. It’s about how the genders often view social networks and their places in them.

    Anywho. I’m off to try not to cry about my socks.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 am
68. Pat Berry Says:
    

    I’m surprised they haven’t been mentioned:

    Boy Scout codes:

    You know, I really should have thought of that. But I was never a Boy Scout. I went to one meeting to find out whether it was something I wanted to get involved in, and several of the boys there decided it would be amusing to take me on a snipe hunt. I had never encountered that particular form of hazing before, but it was clear to me that they were trying to trick and humiliate me in some way. I declined their invitation. That experience soured me on Scouting, and I never went back.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 1:20 am
69. Pat Berry Says:
    

    Women do live by the standards. The problem is, far too many girls grown older think they’re women.

    Your distinction between “women” and “girls grown older” is an interesting one. It reminds me of the essay Steven Den Beste wrote a few years ago on the difference between “women” and “female persons”.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 1:26 am
70. Pat Berry Says:
    

    In today’s Day by Day strip, the (female) characters are discussing what a “real man” is. Does Chris Muir read Rachel’s blog?

    May 3rd, 2008 at 1:45 am
71. rickl Says:
    

    A real woman can’t ever be had over the barrel.

    Umm… OK, I better not say anything.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 2:37 am
72. pookleblinky Says:
    

    Someone needs to make millions of clones of Rachel, STAT.

    Imagine an army of Rachels, armed with cuddly bad-assedness and atomic Clue Bats, accompanied by morbidly obese canine foot soldiers. Unstoppable.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 4:38 am
73. felicity Says:
    

    it was clear to me that they were trying to trick and humiliate me in some way. I declined their invitation. That experience soured me on Scouting, and I never went back.

    That’s the problem with human institutions — humans!

    May 3rd, 2008 at 8:27 am
74. WayneB Says:
    

    In today’s Day by Day strip, the (female) characters are discussing what a “real man” is. Does Chris Muir read Rachel’s blog?

    Actually, that’s part of an ongoing conversation between Sam and Skye that started a couple of weeks ago regarding what Skye wants in a man, and how that matches up (or doesn’t) with her lifestyle. However, in the midst of that was also the thing about the bill to prohibit the sale of girlie mags in PXs, so maybe he DOES read Rachel…

    May 3rd, 2008 at 8:56 am
75. N. O'Brain Says:
    

    That Berry character is interesting.

    Likes Heinlein AND SDB.

    A rare combination, indeed.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 9:31 am
76. Kit Says:
    

    Caldfyr Says:

    So many non-Rachel/Helen blogs mention the growing trend of happily-single non-workaholic men enjoying their hobbies, and then whine about the supposed shortage of “real men”, as if there was any link between the situations. What is it, exactly, that is so terrible about realizing that wanting a woman and needing a woman are not the same thing? What’s wrong with being content with your quality of life, with being capable of balancing your work and your play?

    I think this is one of the most interesting comments I’ve seen so far.
    It used to be a given that men and women needed each other. Then the feminists decided that they didn’t need men. It’s now an accepted fact that women do not need men. I think at some point, the men decided they don’t need women, either. Men especially don’t need women who constantly berate them.
    I think what concerns me the most about the “Man Up!” posts recently is that they are written by women. I’m not sure that women should be telling men to cowboy up. It’s a little…well, counter-productive.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 9:34 am
77. Dani Says:
    

    Labrat I think your comment was spot-on. I’d take it further and say what women really have to do is learn “How to be a Man” and How to be a Woman, depending on what role they’re in. I trained for and worked in a very male-dominated environment for years and I held to the Man’s code. When I made the switch to full-time motherhood I did not know how to play the game. I still don’t and probably never will.

    The main part of the code is to “Be nice.” Confrontation is not allow. I do have some older female friends who can have a spirited discussion and not take it personally, but most of them have been in the work force.

    Heck, even in my book club it’s all novels and I’m the only one who rolls out the nonfiction. Because nonfiction causes people to think and argue and w e can’t have that.

    I pay someone to do the cooking and cleaning because I can, and that works for us. I would be the first one to admit I am not a “real woman” all though my husband would seriously disagree. I think that women having to play by two sets of rules has led to a lot of confusion about what the code should be. At least for me.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 9:51 am
78. Chris Muir Says:
    

    Certainwey, I wead Wachel.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 9:57 am
79. Bill (Mamba1-0) Says:
    

    Woman was created from the rib of man –
    Not from his head
    to top him -
    Neither from his feet -
    to be walked upon.
    She was made from his side -
    to be his equal:
    From beneath his arm -
    to be protected by him:
    From very near his heart -
    to be loved by him.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 11:16 am
80. tibby Says:
    

    I didn’t read all the comments, so someone may have said this already, but to my mind, the phrase you are looking for is a real lady.
    A real lady is one who is:

    “Mentally, emotionally, and intellectually strong, even if not physically (crippled and elderly men can still be “real” men). Hardworking, honorable, honest, dutiful, protective of family and country. Brave, courageous, rational, reasonable, kindhearted, and respectful. Knowledgeable about how to survive in rough times and how to solve problems. And so on.”

    This is another one of the words that you no longer hear, but didn’t your mother ever tell you something wasn’t lady-like?

    May 3rd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
81. Dani Says:
    

    tibby my daughter’s mother tells her quite often what isn’t or isn’t lady-like. Interestingly, a lot of it also applies to my sons who find out what is and isn’t gentlemanly. It must work because total strangers often compliment us on our kids.

    Really, it’s just common courtesy and trying not to look like trash. Although they go to schools with a strict dress code and that helps immensely, too.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
82. epd Says:
    

    Women are stuck with negative stereotypes to avoid (whore, crazy bitch, gold digger etc.). Men have a positive (mostly) stereotype to live up to (real man). It’s two side of the same coin. Just that the woman’s is negatively constructed to corral women and their behavior; and men’s is positively constructed to encourage active behavior. By definition then, a “real woman” is anything that isn’t one of the negative stereotypes used to slander women … Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be nice to have a positive stereotype to try on for size, just an observation.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 3:47 pm
83. Dani Says:
    

    epd I was going to say the same thing when tibby commented “didn’t your mother ever tell you something wasn’t lady-like?” Being lady-like is mostly things that one should NOT do. You pointed out that being a real woman is similar. I agree and think it comes out of the fact that women’s roles aren’t so clear anymore but men’s mostly haven’t changed.

    I bet sixty or seventy years ago the definition of being a real woman would have been just as easy as defining a real man. And I bet most of us real women now wouldn’t like that definition very much.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 4:01 pm
84. Tully Says:
    

    There’s a checklist? Well, being a real man, I’d ignore it anyway, because real men live life on their terms and character, not someone else’s standards.

    Certainwey, I wead Wachel.

    LOL. Knew it when I linked the “twins” strip in the porno thread. Hiya Chris! Keep up the good work. I never miss a strip. (Day by Day COMIC strip, you pervs…)

    May 3rd, 2008 at 5:31 pm
85. mightysamurai Says:
    

    Women are stuck with negative stereotypes to avoid (whore, crazy bitch, gold digger etc.). Men have a positive (mostly) stereotype to live up to (real man). It’s two side of the same coin. Just that the woman’s is negatively constructed to corral women and their behavior; and men’s is positively constructed to encourage active behavior. By definition then, a “real woman” is anything that isn’t one of the negative stereotypes used to slander women … Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be nice to have a positive stereotype to try on for size, just an observation.

    Nonsense. Men have just as many negative stereotypes to avoid (coward, weakling, bully, etc.) and women have just as many positive stereotypes to aspire to (compassionate, sensitive, nurturing, etc.).

    May 3rd, 2008 at 7:22 pm
86. Mrs. Peel Says:
    

    My daughters and I joke that, to paraphrase a Jane Austen line, it’s because they “talk about things — we never talk about things!”

    Felicity, if you don’t mind, could you please tell me what line you are talking about? Austen is one of my favorite authors, and I quote her all the time, so I’m going nuts trying to figure out what you’re referencing.

    Anyway, on topic, I’m another woman who greatly prefers the friendship of men, largely because women will stab you in the back as soon as they get a chance. I had an ugly breakup a few years ago, and my best friend of eight years happily sided with the ex. She was reporting on my activities and conversation to him, and I had no idea. It never even occurred to me that anyone would behave in such a fashion, because it’s so alien to my nature. But women will pull that kind of garbage all the time.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 10:13 pm
87. jwmick Says:
    

    lazlo is . . . man!

    May 3rd, 2008 at 10:50 pm
88. Ben \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Zombie Hunter\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" Joffrion Says:
    

    Jesus Christ, you are our best living philosopher.

    May 3rd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
89. Patty Says:
    

    Allow me to show my age.
    A real woman doesn’t need a checklist to identify a real man any more than a real man needs one to identify a real woman.
    This presupposes that both will take the time to get to know the other before jumping into ANYTHING.
    And then when they decide to get married/have children/etc. they will know what they are getting into.
    My husband of 32 years remains my best friend.
    YMMV.

    May 4th, 2008 at 9:33 am
90. felicity Says:
    

    Mrs. Peel,
    Ouch! I hope you haven’t been bashing your head against this for too long, because you’ll never find it! One, it’s from the film (which took a great many liberties — though we love it just the same), and two, I was paraphrasing, so it wasn’t even an exact quote! (see scene 53 — a conversation which never takes place in the novel — sorry!)

    I promise faithfully not to throw away another line like that — in future quotes will be exact, no paraphrasing, and will be accompanied by links or MLA citatations!

    May 4th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
91. mightysamurai Says:
    

    So there’s really not a lot of mystery about what everyone agrees a “real” man is. We all know “real” men are:

    Mentally, emotionally, and intellectually strong, even if not physically (crippled and elderly men can still be “real” men). Hardworking, honorable, honest, dutiful, protective of family and country. Brave, courageous, rational, reasonable, kindhearted, and respectful. Knowledgeable about how to survive in rough times and how to solve problems. And so on.

    What I started wanting to know when I was about 16 was just how in the hell any of those things were (or should be) exclusive to men. I realized even then that in fact, they are not. All adults should have every one of those personality and character traits as a matter of course.

    So then I started wondering why anyone bothered with the phrase “real man” at all. Don’t they just mean “real adult”? As a young girl, shouldn’t I strive to be exactly the kind of person I kept hearing a “real man” would be? I thought so, and I still do. Maybe that’s why you never hear me whining about how my butt looks in these jeans or crying that no one pays enough attention to me. Who gives a crap? I don’t need any reassurances about silly shit because apparently, I am a “real man”, secure in my own “manliness”. Even though I’m a woman.

    I was re-reading this section of Rachel’s post when something struck me and I thought I might throw it out there for discussion:

    Rachel asked why the definition of a “real man” encompasses so many traits that, in reality, every responsible and well-adjusted adult should possess. Maybe, just maybe, the reason why those traits are exclusive to “real men” and not people in general is because modern women have largely abandoned those positive traits?

    Before anyone gets all offended, hear me out.

    Lots of women have commented that they prefer the company of men to women because women tend to be catty, spread vicious rumors, talk behind each other’s backs, be passive-aggressive, etc. etc. etc. In essence, these women are saying that it is precisely because men usually reject these negative traits that they prefer to associate with them rather than with other women.

    Perhaps the answer here is as simple as encouraging women to become more like men? Within reason, of course. I’m not saying women should scratch themselves in public or stop shaving their pits or anything like that. But it occurs to me that maybe the solution is to start generally emphasizing and encouraging these “male” traits over so-called “female” traits.

    May 4th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
92. N. O'Brain Says:
    

    Here’s a thought: a real man is a tamed boy.

    May 4th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
93. manny232 Says:
    

    A real woman is at minimum willing to have a baby and are really sympathetic to those who have them rather than those who diss women who have this as a priority.

    Also, like Tammy Wynette, she will stand by her man. She will bake cookies (eat them without getting fat) and help children do their homework.

    Women these days are wimps. They don’t have strength of character. They are flakes and don’t honor the marriage vow as they used to.

    Women are the ones that file for divorce first according to the stats. This should change before I’ll ever consider the women of these days as real women. They are gold diggers and promiscious whores.

    May 4th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
94. LabRat Says:
    

    Perhaps the answer here is as simple as encouraging women to become more like men? Within reason, of course. I’m not saying women should scratch themselves in public or stop shaving their pits or anything like that. But it occurs to me that maybe the solution is to start generally emphasizing and encouraging these “male” tr